Who said this aabout modern yacht designs?

[Concerto]

Who made these comments on modern production yacht designs.

‘I think they show great variety and some of them are exciting and successful. Rather like motor cars, they seem to get bigger and bigger (beam and freeboard) for a given number of passengers/crew. I guess that’s the way the market goes. Some of them are quite extreme.

‘A big part of design is the skill of balancing the various elements, which all have to work together, to get to the right function-to-purpose factor.

‘Hence a very wide stern, for example, is good providing it doesn’t make the boat unbalanced going to windward in a lot of breeze – which can sometimes happen with designs that are fine forward, unless you have heavy crew sitting on the aft weather rail.

‘A wide-stern boat needn’t be unbalanced without this crew weight providing the lines are compensated for by fuller sections forward.

‘A yacht designer has to know his onions when it comes to hull form and volume distribution. In my opinion this only comes from successful racing yacht designers who have studied their own work, first hand, by sitting on the rail for hours, weeks and, if you add it all up, years, trying to win (and winning) major offshore races around the world.

‘That’s what I did in the ’70s, ’80s and into the ’90s. It’s indispensable. If I were a client for a cruising yacht, I would only go to a successful racing-yacht designer who had also designed beautiful cruising yachts.

‘The key is to identify the true purpose of the yacht and that can only be achieved by understanding the client and what he wants. This is the same with a private individual or a production boat company. Like most things in life, success is born out of good communication.’

Interesting comments by who?

 

[RichardS]

Thriftyarek888?

Richard

 

[doug748]

Interesting comments by who?

I'll take a punt on........Doug Peterson.

 

[Tradewinds]

Ed Dubois

Thanks Google

 

[RichardS]

Ed Dubois

Thanks Google

I can't help wondering whether you've misjudged the spirit of the question.

Richard

 

[doug748]

Ed Dubois

Thanks Google

Nice boat Ed's:


https://keyassets.timeincuk.net/ins...sites/19/2016/03/Firebrand-Dubois-630x420.jpg


.

 

[Tradewinds]

I can't help wondering whether you've misjudged the spirit of the question.

Richard

I was in one of those moods . Sorry Concerto.

 

[Skylark]

I can think of a few forumites that would never be able to stutter such words. Doubtless they would prefer bring burned at the stake. ?

 

[scruff]

Clearly the designer is talking about the perfect boat - beautiful, comfortable, sea kindly and fast. As we have been told time and time again, only one boat meets these criteria - The Anderson 22. It can only be therefore Oliver Lee

 

[Daydream believer]

Olin Stephens

 

[Tradewinds]

Re OP - full article here for those interested

Ed Dubois

 

[Laminar Flow]

Today, when the gulf between cruising boat and racing boat is so wide, I doubt these sentiments still hold true. I haven't seen that many foiling cruising monohulls around for that matter or even planing ones. Once the boat has a fridge and some Chablis to go in it, you're done with going much above hull speed. In terms of displacement speeds, I'm not expecting any major breakthroughs any time soon. Ironically, many older designs such as Dorade or Stormy Weather seem to still be competitive, on corrected time of course, 80 or more years after the fact.
Would I choose a successful contemporary racing design to be my choice or inspiration for a cruiser? I doubt it. A scow bow on a sea-going cruiser is ridiculous, even though they are available, and planing it will get me a speedy divorce.
As the late and great Mr. Dubois pointed out, fashion does play a major role in contemporary design and often likes to at least, mimic racing success. I seriously doubt it produces the best cruiser and it usually lasts until the next gimmick or fad comes along to render all that came before obsolete and provides the big yards with a new stick to sell another boat.
As far as simple displacement speeds go, it was figured out long ago what makes a boat quick, comfortable and seaworthy.

 

[Old Harry]

Olin Stephens

My choice as well

 

[Daydream believer]

it was figured out long ago what makes a boat quick, comfortable and seaworthy.

That is why Pogo are so successful
& they cannot have figured it out that well, otherwise the latest 40ft HR would not be so much faster than its predecessors & some of the modern Hanse etalia would not be leaving old Swans etc standing in their wakes.

 

[Concerto]

I thought I should leave you to discuss. Well done to Tradewinds in being the first to say Ed Dubois.

His comments do follow my thoughts about modern yacht design. I dislike the wide beam, wide transom, high freeboard style of yacht and feel the early IOR based designs are some of the nicest to sail aboard. The prettiest yachts are the old RORC rule designs with long overhangs. Some of you may disagree with my opinions, so feel free to reply.

 

[Laminar Flow]

That is why Pogo are so successful
& they cannot have figured it out that well, otherwise the latest 40ft HR would not be so much faster than its predecessors & some of the modern Hanse etalia would not be leaving old Swans etc standing in their wakes.

Nothing you have stated above contradicts anything I said earlier. The biggest single development in the last 70 years in yacht design has been in construction materials which have lead to a significant reduction in weight. This in turn has led to significantly higher SA/D ratios, allowing (some) boats to exceed traditionally accepted speeds. It comes at a price.
Let's take a Pogo 30 : it displaces 2800kg (empty), ballast is 1900lbs or 861kg and, hence has a B/G ratio of just 30%.
The same boat has a comfort ratio of just 11.4 and a capsize screening factor of 2.65.
Both these numbers indicate a boat that is neither comfortable, nor suitable for offshore passages. Are they fun to sail? Yes, absolutely, just like a big dinghy. But load them up with everything you need for cruising, the already modest B/D ratio goes into the basement and you will start dragging that lovely wide planing wedge through the water. In extreme situations she'll be equally happy upside down as right way up. Every gram of supplies, tools, bicycles, books, cooking gear, clothes and equipment will maker her, relative to a more conventional boat, less seaworthy and slower.

This is why I was talking about displacement speeds, comfort and seaworthiness. In non-planing situations a Pogo is no quicker than a conventional type, length for length, and in some circumstances they are slower.


The boat under the lee of my genoa is a Pogo 30. She belongs to the Glenan sailing school and was following a fleet of their boats out of the Paimpol lock. She was some 200m ahead of us. We too were under genoa only. Our tub (see avatar) caught up, passed her and we were catching up with the next in line.

I have the performance data for the new(er) HR 34, wedgy with twin rudders, from a German test on a boat with a cloud of laminate. I have done the numbers as to relative speed and headings and I'm still struggling to be impressed.

On displacement speeds: I have the speed data for 40 years of 12-meter class development.
Speed made good to windward:
Light winds: Absolutely zero increase in over 40 years
Moderate winds: o.5 kts
Strong winds: 1kts
The increase in speed, apart from advances made in sail cloth, is entirely due to increased B/D ratios due to advanced materials.

 

[geem]

Nothing you have stated above contradicts anything I said earlier. The biggest single development in the last 70 years in yacht design has been in construction materials which have lead to a significant reduction in weight. This in turn has led to significantly higher SA/D ratios, allowing (some) boats to exceed traditionally accepted speeds. It comes at a price.
Let's take a Pogo 30 : it displaces 2800kg (empty), ballast is 1900lbs or 861kg and, hence has a B/G ratio of just 30%.
The same boat has a comfort ratio of just 11.4 and a capsize screening factor of 2.65.
Both these numbers indicate a boat that is neither comfortable, nor suitable for offshore passages. Are they fun to sail? Yes, absolutely, just like a big dinghy. But load them up with everything you need for cruising, the already modest B/D ratio goes into the basement and you will start dragging that lovely wide planing wedge through the water. In extreme situations she'll be equally happy upside down as right way up. Every gram of supplies, tools, bicycles, books, cooking gear, clothes and equipment will maker her, relative to a more conventional boat, less seaworthy and slower.

This is why I was talking about displacement speeds, comfort and seaworthiness. In non-planing situations a Pogo is no quicker than a conventional type, length for length, and in some circumstances they are slower.

View attachment 85518
The boat under the lee of my genoa is a Pogo 30. She belongs to the Glenan sailing school and was following a fleet of their boats out of the Paimpol lock. She was some 200m ahead of us. We too were under genoa only. Our tub (see avatar) caught up, passed her and we were catching up with the next in line.

I have the performance data for the new(er) HR 34, wedgy with twin rudders, from a German test on a boat with a cloud of laminate. I have done the numbers as to relative speed and headings and I'm still struggling to be impressed.

On displacement speeds: I have the speed data for 40 years of 12-meter class development.
Speed made good to windward:
Light winds: Absolutely zero increase in over 40 years
Moderate winds: o.5 kts
Strong winds: 1kts
The increase in speed, apart from advances made in sail cloth, is entirely due to increased B/D ratios due to advanced materials.

We see this on a regular basis here sailing between the islands. Hanse, Bens, Jens, Bavs all loaded up as liveaboard cruisers are not as fast as us. Our 40 year old boat started life out as a heavy boat with 41% ballast ratio but large sail area. Loaded up as a liveaboard she takes weight very well. We are sat above our original marks. Not so the multitude of quick looking but actually quite sluggish crop of newer boats. Over loaded and performing badly. Actual sailing performance in the real world hasn't moved on much. Strip all the excess fat of these modern boats and they will perform quite well around the cans but as long distance cruisers full of creature comforts, forget it. Their seaworthiness is not enhanced by the weight loaded on to them

 

[Laminar Flow]

We see this on a regular basis here sailing between the islands. Hanse, Bens, Jens, Bavs all loaded up as liveaboard cruisers are not as fast as us. Our 40 year old boat started life out as a heavy boat with 41% ballast ratio but large sail area. Loaded up as a liveaboard she takes weight very well. We are sat above our original marks. Not so the multitude of quick looking but actually quite sluggish crop of newer boats. Over loaded and performing badly. Actual sailing performance in the real world hasn't moved on much. Strip all the excess fat of these modern boats and they will perform quite well around the cans but as long distance cruisers full of creature comforts, forget it. Their seaworthiness is not enhanced by the weight loaded on to them

Agree. I always thought that a clean, smooth wake was an indication of a well-designed hull, unlike the amount of disturbance and white water one might observe in the wake of some of the latest crop of boats. The new boats have, in order to effect planing, extremely flat lines in the stern sections. That is fine, as long as they are not loaded down. Once that transom immerses it sucks, literally; and that's a drag. (sorry, couldn't resist)
One more point not often mentioned, is that these flat sterns make one hell of a racket at anchor, as the waves slap and splash up under them. I remember visiting a couple on their steel Red Baron design, anchored in a quiet lagoon at the San Blas. The pings and bongs that went on under that stern and reverberated throughout the boat, would have had me in an institute after a single night of it.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

We see this on a regular basis here sailing between the islands. Hanse, Bens, Jens, Bavs all loaded up as liveaboard cruisers are not as fast as us. Our 40 year old boat started life out as a heavy boat with 41% ballast ratio but large sail area. Loaded up as a liveaboard she takes weight very well. We are sat above our original marks. Not so the multitude of quick looking but actually quite sluggish crop of newer boats. Over loaded and performing badly. Actual sailing performance in the real world hasn't moved on much. Strip all the excess fat of these modern boats and they will perform quite well around the cans but as long distance cruisers full of creature comforts, forget it. Their seaworthiness is not enhanced by the weight loaded on to them
[ cruising boats can be useful.

If in an anchorage, and you need to borrow something like a drill, always make for the most
overloaded boat.

Agree. I always thought that a clean, smooth wake was an indication of a well-designed hull, unlike the amount of disturbance and white water one might observe in the wake of some of the latest crop of boats. The new boats have, in order to effect planing, extremely flat lines in the stern sections. That is fine, as long as they are not loaded down. Once that transom immerses it sucks, literally; and that's a drag. (sorry, couldn't resist)
One more point not often mentioned, is that these flat sterns make one hell of a racket at anchor, as the waves slap and splash up under them. I remember visiting a couple on their steel Red Baron design, anchored in a quiet lagoon at the San Blas. The pings and bongs that went on under that stern and reverberated throughout the boat, would have had me in an institute after a single night of it.

Overladen cruising boats can be useful though.

If in an anchorage , and you need to borrow something like a drill, make for the most overweight boat. One of the many Sod's Laws of the sea.

 

[geem]

Overladen cruising boats can be useful though.

If in an anchorage , and you need to borrow something like a drill, make for the most overweight boat. One of the many Sod's Laws of the sea.

You mean you sail without a drill? we have three!