White vinegar ( or alternative) for heads?

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pcatterall

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Most of the time we flush our heads with tank water as we have a large tank and mostly it is only pee which is flushed. We always ensure that the waste is completely pumped out of the pipe ( about 15 pumps for us)never the less we seem to suffer from white deposits in the ( Jabsco twist and lock) this means that I frequently have to clean the jocker(?) valve so that the twist and lock bit works rather than the water in the pipe flowing back into the bowl.I understood that white vinegar flushed progressively up the outlet pipe will eliminate the scaly deposit ? I cant find white vinegar in Cagliari is there another liquid I can use ( I guess it is the acetic acid which does the de scaling?)Advice appreciated
 
The deposits are contained within the effluent, so if you are still getting them, you haven't pumped it all out. However, you can use non brewed condiment.
Non condimento preparato.....
 
pcatterall said:
Most of the time we flush our heads with tank water as we have a large tank and mostly it is only pee which is flushed. We always ensure that the waste is completely pumped out of the pipe ( about 15 pumps for us)never the less we seem to suffer from white deposits in the ( Jabsco twist and lock) this means that I frequently have to clean the jocker(?) valve so that the twist and lock bit works rather than the water in the pipe flowing back into the bowl.I understood that white vinegar flushed progressively up the outlet pipe will eliminate the scaly deposit ? I cant find white vinegar in Cagliari is there another liquid I can use ( I guess it is the acetic acid which does the de scaling?)Advice appreciated
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It's not flushing the pee away properly that is causing the trouble!

Bacteria get to work on the nitrogenous compounds in the pee producing ammonia. The ammonia raises the pH. When the pH rises insoluble calcium and magnesium carbonates are formed from the bicarbonate temporary hardness in the water and deposited as a scale.

Distilled vinegar is what you need but I'd guess that the ordinary stuff will also work. They have similar acetic acid concentrations

The secret will be to flush a little vinegar after toilet use to ensure that the water left in the joker valve is always acidic. It will prevent the scale formation and suppress if not actually eliminate the bacteria.

IDShot_225x225.jpg
 
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a. Depends on the head. Jabsco uses neoprene, Rairtan and most others use nitrile.

b. Neoprene is vulnerable to propylene glycol (bad--gets hard and leaks) and some veggy oils (stick to canola, better yet, silicone grease), and nitrile is a little more vulnerable to acetic acid. Either should be OK for limited exposure.

Lactic acid (CLR) is actually a very good choice.

(I soaked a bunch of joker valves for a magazine article)
 
Try brick cleaner , but flush through well after a soaking as I am not sure what it will do to the rubber !!!

If you have a holding tank you may find calcium deposits just before the entry to the tank & not realise it.
After 12 years the pipe in my heads became so blocked that one could hardly get a pencil through it. It was blocked at the first 2 feet ,then the last 12 inches before the holding tank. Not quite sure why there, but worth checking your own system all along the pipe
 
pcatterall said:
Most of the time we flush our heads with tank water as we have a large tank and mostly it is only pee which is flushed. We always ensure that the waste is completely pumped out of the pipe ( about 15 pumps for us)never the less we seem to suffer from white deposits in the ( Jabsco twist and lock) this means that I frequently have to clean the jocker(?) valve so that the twist and lock bit works rather than the water in the pipe flowing back into the bowl.I understood that white vinegar flushed progressively up the outlet pipe will eliminate the scaly deposit ? I cant find white vinegar in Cagliari is there another liquid I can use ( I guess it is the acetic acid which does the de scaling?)Advice appreciated
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I might have misunderstood your post but with a Twist and Lock toilet it's the lockable flap in bottom valve which stops the backflow rather than the joker valve. With a non T & L toilet it's the joker valve which stops the backflow but it fails rather easily.

Ideally, if both valves are sealing perfectly then you have a double seal but the lower flap valve is the important one so if you are getting backflow with the T & L version I would remove the lower valve and make sure that it is clean and well greased with silicon grease. Jabsco recommend not to grease the valve but I would ignore that as it is probably to guard against people greasing it with the wrong kind of grease.

Once you have that flap valve sealing properly it should continue to work effectively as it should have clear water flushing through it as in is the first valve in the system. It is almost inevitable that you will get some backflow through the joker valve unless you are scrupulous about flushing and occasional acid-washing but it doesn't matter as it will not get past the locked flap valve and with not affect its sealing ability.

Richard
 
thinwater said:
a. Depends on the head. Jabsco uses neoprene, Rairtan and most others use nitrile.

b. Neoprene is vulnerable to propylene glycol (bad--gets hard and leaks) and some veggy oils (stick to canola, better yet, silicone grease), and nitrile is a little more vulnerable to acetic acid. Either should be OK for limited exposure.

QUOTE]

Oh dear. I have been putting olive oil down the karzi to lubricate the jabsco pump and it now seems that is likely to degrade the neoprene seals.
Looks like a drop of 15w40 in future !
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Many of the rubbers in toilets have minimal exposure to the liquids we might put down them so degradation by acid, or oils etc is not a huge issue (as long as you are not using concentrated HCl and leaving it for a week. In Daydream Believer's case I think he will need be pretty aggressive and need accept he might destroy 'something'. It is impossible to move rock hard calcium deposits any other way than acid, reeming it out is not easy nor pleasant. We destroyed the flap valve, one with a lead weight on it, in our manual toilet, maybe vinegar soaked for too long (the rubber swells and will no longer seal) We simply made new ones, keep one as a spare, from printers blankets (which we also use for the collar round our saildrive). We use the same blanket to make seals, various. For a source of printers blanket - try your local offset printer (or print supply company) they often have scrap blanket - either offcuts or damaged.

Jonathan
 
pcatterall said:
Most of the time we flush our heads with tank water as we have a large tank and mostly it is only pee which is flushed. We always ensure that the waste is completely pumped out of the pipe ( about 15 pumps for us)never the less we seem to suffer from white deposits in the ( Jabsco twist and lock) this means that I frequently have to clean the jocker(?) valve so that the twist and lock bit works rather than the water in the pipe flowing back into the bowl.I understood that white vinegar flushed progressively up the outlet pipe will eliminate the scaly deposit ? I cant find white vinegar in Cagliari is there another liquid I can use ( I guess it is the acetic acid which does the de scaling?)Advice appreciated
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The active ingredient in vinegar is indeed acetic acid and I know the problem to find it in Italy as just about the only form is salad dressing with balsamic mix and too expensive to pour down the toilet. There are plenty of cleaning agents in the household sections and labelled as sink cleaners and de-scalers but my wife, who knows about these things, was horrified at some of them found locally to the boat in NE Italy, saying that such chemicals would need a special prescription to be peddled back home in Switzerland. She brings a standard apple vinegar bathroom cleaner (active ingredient also acetic acid) for general scale removal and uses that for the on-board toilet.
 
I put a small bottle of hydrochloric acid down our toilet periodically. 500 ml bottles of HCl at a concentration of about 20% are available in the majority of supermarkets in Europe for exactly this purpose in houses. Having researched the resistance of toilet materials extensively following repeated threads on the same subject I can advise that nothing in marine toilets is at risk (including seacocks). The web based resistance chart I use warns against exposure of some of the elastomers to concentrated HCl for extended periods but this will never apply to toilet cleaning.
 
vyv_cox said:
I put a small bottle of hydrochloric acid down our toilet periodically. 500 ml bottles of HCl at a concentration of about 20% are available in the majority of supermarkets in Europe for exactly this purpose in houses...
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I assume with a full bowl? How long do you leave it?

Are they really 20%? Or do you mean concentrated (34%) diluted 1:4, I get confused over this.
 
RichardS said:
I might have misunderstood your post but with a Twist and Lock toilet it's the lockable flap in bottom valve which stops the backflow rather than the joker valve. With a non T & L toilet it's the joker valve which stops the backflow but it fails rather easily.

Ideally, if both valves are sealing perfectly then you have a double seal but the lower flap valve is the important one so if you are getting backflow with the T & L version I would remove the lower valve and make sure that it is clean and well greased with silicon grease. Jabsco recommend not to grease the valve but I would ignore that as it is probably to guard against people greasing it with the wrong kind of grease.

Once you have that flap valve sealing properly it should continue to work effectively as it should have clear water flushing through it as in is the first valve in the system. It is almost inevitable that you will get some backflow through the joker valve unless you are scrupulous about flushing and occasional acid-washing but it doesn't matter as it will not get past the locked flap valve and with not affect its sealing ability.

Richard
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I'm trying to see ( from the spares kit pictures) which is the lockable flap referred to! I don't have the spares kit or the diagram here in UK and if I recall correctly the diagram was hard to read.
My cleaning to date has involved taking out and cleaning/replacing every thing that I can get at by just removing the top cover and plunger, do I have to go further than that?
I would say that all the parts in the standard spares kit can be fitted with just the top cover removed ( again 'as far as I recall'!)
I wouldn't mind doing this work but for the fact that my pee is usually bucketed and chucked!!
 
pcatterall said:
I'm trying to see ( from the spares kit pictures) which is the lockable flap referred to! I don't have the spares kit or the diagram here in UK and if I recall correctly the diagram was hard to read.
My cleaning to date has involved taking out and cleaning/replacing every thing that I can get at by just removing the top cover and plunger, do I have to go further than that?
I would say that all the parts in the standard spares kit can be fitted with just the top cover removed ( again 'as far as I recall'!)
I wouldn't mind doing this work but for the fact that my pee is usually bucketed and chucked!!
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Hard to read ??

The flap referred to is #16 in the diagram below. It is held shut when the pump handle is twisted to lock it down. It's called the "base valve gasket" in the parts list.

There are incidentally 4 different spares kits for different parts of the "apparatus" but the base valve gasket is sold separately

There are some good videos on the jabsco website which explain how various parts work and how to replace the replaceable parts.

see http://jabscotech.com/

29090-3exp.jpg
 
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pcatterall said:
I'm trying to see ( from the spares kit pictures) which is the lockable flap referred to! I don't have the spares kit or the diagram here in UK and if I recall correctly the diagram was hard to read.
My cleaning to date has involved taking out and cleaning/replacing every thing that I can get at by just removing the top cover and plunger, do I have to go further than that?
I would say that all the parts in the standard spares kit can be fitted with just the top cover removed ( again 'as far as I recall'!)
I wouldn't mind doing this work but for the fact that my pee is usually bucketed and chucked!!
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I see. The problem is that you are not getting to the actual locking valve. To do this you have to undo the four large slotted headed screws at the base of the plunger housing. You can leave the top cover (with the 6 small self-tappers) in place. You could remove the top plastic nut and then remove the piston and rod if you wish to grease it but you don't need to.

You might not even need to remove either of the upper smaller pipes depending upon how flexible they are although you might want to unscrew the bottom outlet joker valve housing (two larger self tappers) or at least take off the outlet pipe because it tends to be rather inflexible, not least because of the rigidity of the deposits inside it!

Once you have the valve out - it is a large rubber flap valve with a weight inside it - then clean it up carefully with any acid - vinegar, lemon juice, hydrochloric, whatever you have - and grease it with silicone grease (not vaseline) and replace it. It has some locating holes and pegs so you can only replace it one way.

Replace the 4 self tappers carefully guarding against cross-threading by turning gently anti-clockwise first. It's best not to do this too often because of the danger of x-threading or overtightening the self-tappers but, to be honest, one you get it working properly you should not have to do it again provided you flush properly.

When I leave the boat I put a bit of acid through and then flush well with a couple of litres of fresh water and leave the boat with the handle not locked to ensure that I avoid any permanent set in the rubber valve. I also leave the flip switch at the top over to the left hand water-inlet side for the same reason ....... but do close the seacock because with these two valves in the open position you only have the seacock to prevent water ingress.

Hope this helps

Richard
 
RichardS said:
I see. The problem is that you are not getting to the actual locking valve. To do this .......................................................

Richard
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A diagram would help Perhaps there is a good sized one on the jabsco shop website :D
 
nigelmercier said:
I assume with a full bowl? How long do you leave it?

Are they really 20%? Or do you mean concentrated (34%) diluted 1:4, I get confused over this.
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Me too! I suspect that in the past in Greece they were diluting concentrated acid at 1:4 and calling it 20%. This year we bought several bottles that were in the same packaging as previous, worked just as well, but were marked as 6%.

I flush through with fresh water, then use the full 500 ml. Put about a third of it in the bowl, pump a couple of times and leave for 5 minutes. repeat twice, then flush through with seawater. This will sometimes clean a scaled joker valve and does seem to help to keep hoses clean. Our problem is that we have a gravity holding tank with no divert option. We spend a lot of time anchored in nice bays or stern-to in small ports, where the seacock will be closed. We are therefore reluctant to flush using a lot of water and our discharge hose has a tendency to block with salts.
 
Try agua fuerte which we used to buy in Spain and I think you can get similar in Sardinia. We are based in Carloforte now which I would recommend to anybody. I think it is dilute hydrochloride acid and is a very good heads cleaner. Avoid getting it on the skin, especially anywhere sensitive if it is going in the heads!
 
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