Which sailmaker?

[jcpa]

How do you choose a sailmaker, or how did you, and were you pleased with your choice?

I want to fit roller reefing on my recently acquired 28 foot cruiser/racer. The existing ‘hank on’ sails are shot, and probably not worth having re-luffed, so a new jib/genny is required. A good cruising sail is what I want, but I would like to do some club racing eventually. I’ve had quotes from several sailmakers in the Gosport area (where the boat is) but I don’t know how to compare cost and quality.

The sailmakers all say their sails are better, or more competitively priced than all the competition, whose sails are frankly poorly made, or use low quality cloth. Who to believe/trust?. Reputation is obviously a major factor, but I don’t know enough other sailors well enough to help me assess the sailmakers and their prices. The costs are quite significant (on top of the roller reefing gear), so where is the “Which? guide to sails and sailmakers”? Some sailors have told me ‘Don’t use X’, others have supported their choice (but maybe so as not to admit they spent far more than they should have on an ordinary sail). Some sailmakers import cheap, off the peg sails from overseas makers, while others claim to offer a bespoke service.

What is best for my boat is totally unclear, even the basic dimensions seem to be up for grabs, with little real account taken of the original designer’s specifications – it has to be a good compromise, roll nicely, and not impede the view/anchor deployment, etc. Maybe it is like comparing makes and models of car: Fiats; Fords; Audis; hatchbacks; coupes; 4by4s; etc, but there does seem to be some consensus of opinion there.

So can the experience of the forum members help me make this possibly “once in 20 years” decision?

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

On my two previous boats (a 20' Vivacity and a 26' Centaur) I too had to make a changeover to roller furling gennies. In both cases I bought from Sea Teach, doing the order over the phone after discussing with one of the owners (James?). I was extremely pleased with the product, so much so that I went back to them when I got the second boat. If I live long enough to require new sails for my present boat they would be my first contact.

What you need to look out for is the cloth. In some of the cheaper sails the cloth 'hand' (the stiffness) is achieved through the insertion of large amounts of filler into the weave. This is a powder that bonds to the threads when the cloth is heat treated during post-weaving processing. The fabric becomes stiffish and crisp. Unfortunately, through use, folding and rolling the powder soon parts company with the fabric and the sail starts to behave like a bedsheet. If you can get to the sailmaker try crushing up a section in your hands, like when you screw up a sheet of paper before throwing it away. Hold it crumpled for a minute or so. The presence of excessive filler is shown by white lines along the creases, the less lines, the better the fabric.

As for importing, usually from China, this alone is no reason to doubt quality. China can and does produce anything to whatever level of quality or cost that the client wants. Where they score is in the cost of labour; there is a lot of labour involved in the production of sails. I don't think that, quality for quality, anyone can beat them on price.

Just an opinion based on my own experience; needless to say, others might not agree.

 

[fergie_mac66]

Arun and Crusader

Sometimes its worth checking out who made the sails when the boat was build.

We have just(2 weeks ago ) had a main made by Arun for our catalac .They made most of the sails on boat manufacture .. so they have made hundreds of sails for the class . We ordered a none standard sail with a couple of mods and it was delivered within 2 weeks !! We got a good price And a good sail . The real test will be after a year or 2. However they made the old sail and to say its 20years old, its still holds its shape when reefed in force 8, so if the new one lasts as well it will see us out.

We had sails made for our other boat by Crusader a good few few years ago they had supplied the original sails which were 14 years old when we got the boat and again they knew the pattern,so made the new ones quickly ten years ago and they have been good sails. We will go back next year for a new yankee.The one we have now wasnt made by Crusader and its way past its best

 

[ostell]

Second Arun. Go at the beginning of the week and talk to Gerry. Always been pleased with their work.

 

[Rich_saunders]

I centanly wouldnt go anywhere near Westaway sails. I have had nothing but problems and even after returnign the sail as asked getting my money back was a different story.

Anyone want further information please PM me.

 

[dmayes]

Arun

Just bought a new main sail from Arun for my Sailfish 25. Gerry remembers making the original sail a very long time ago. They were very helpful and the sail fits perfectly, I gave them the wrong dimensions first and they knew enough to make me re-measure before they made the sail. Great service.

 

[Tranona]

It is highly unlikely that you will get "bad" sails from an established sailmaker. There is too much competition for a bad one to survive, and also there is so much known about making satisfactory sails that for the general market they are almost a commodity product. Of course there is some variation and individual sailmakers may well try and differentiate their product or concentrate on particular segments of the market.

The most important thing for many is to deal with a sailmaker who has good experience of your type of boat and is willing to measure your boat, explain why he is doing things in a particular way and then fit the sails to your boat. On the other hand there are potentially cost savings to be made in buying sails that are made elsewhere, and some of the people who sell these also do the personal service bit.

If this thread runs you will find positive recommendations for most of the well known (and some less well known) sailmakers - but very few, if any negative experiences. Does not really help make a choice, so in the end you will probably just choose one that you feel comfortable with. You are fortunate (or maybe unfortunate!) in living in an area where you have a big choice of local firms.

 

[Plevier]

I assume you're thinking of Dacron.
I'm pleased with my Kemp sails and their service.
However their first quote used cheap cloth to keep the price down.
I went for a top quality one (Marblehead) and it added about 10-15%, can't remember exactly.
I think it's false economy not to.

 

[boatmike]

I assume you're thinking of Dacron.
I'm pleased with my Kemp sails and their service.
However their first quote used cheap cloth to keep the price down.
I went for a top quality one (Marblehead) and it added about 10-15%, can't remember exactly.
I think it's false economy not to.

I would second the vote for Kemp. They will discuss alternatives with you honestly and do avery good job. I also think others will do a good job but often reduce prices by using cheaper materials. Visit the boat show and talk to all of them. Without insult intended you don't say what boat but I assume it's not an outright racing machine so very expensive racing fabrics are unnecessary. There are many different weights of cloth and fabrics. Get each sailmaker to show you samples and compare prices and cloth. Also ask if seams are single, double or triple stitched and get them to show you. To confuse matters further you can have parallel or radial panels etc, which I am inclined to say won't make too much difference on a boat like yours but get the sailmakers to explain to you to ensure you are comparing like with like. Shop around! You will learn a lot at the boat show if you ask all the right questions.

 

[ashtead]

Sanders has always been good for me

 

[BAtoo]

Whoever you choose make sure they come and measure your boat - if it ends up wrong its their fault...

I have always been satisfied with Parker & Kay (was Quantum, now OneSails) - they have a loft near to you I believe.

 

[camman]

I centanly wouldnt go anywhere near Westaway sails. I have had nothing but problems and even after returnign the sail as asked getting my money back was a different story.

Anyone want further information please PM me.

I'll second that.

 

[PhillM]

Ben at Shore Sails (Swanwick) gets my vote.

He doesnt talk about sails until he is happy that the boat and rig will work as you want - so you get what you want from your sails.

Ben gave me a lot of help and advice about all sorts of factors and I was only buying a new genoa. It arived on-time and for the agree price. I am delighted with it.

I've got a new Main on order for next season and am hoping budget will stretch to a no3 job and asymetric at some point next year.

 

[jcpa]

Thanks all, some new names, and some I've already spoken to -and had 'warnings' about from some of their competitors! It’s good to hear customers’ perspectives.

And it would be good to find a sailmaker who has supplied the class before.

It would also be sensible to quiz the sailmakers at SIBS, but I will be abroad throughout that whole time (bad planning I know!).

My Kelt 850 is not a racing boat, but is reputed to quite quick when things are right. There were about 650 made between 1984-2000, by various French firms (latterly by Feeling) as the makers were taken over. In fact, the much more recent Feeling 306 and 30 are really much the same boat and the same rig. However, only a handfull of Kelt/Feelings 850/29s are in British waters, and, apart from the previous owner of my boat, I have only had basic email contact with 3 other owners (in Essex, Cornwall and Wales). I doubt if there was a UK loft that made class sails (but would be pleased to hear otherwise).

I believe the original sails for my boat were made by Elvestrom (sounds expensive!), but they were destroyed in a loft fire. My current sails were made by Blackmore, but he retired in the 1990s (he posted as much on this forum in 2009 under the name ‘fxray’). Rob Kemp says he has made a couple of suits of sails for a Kelt 850 in Burnham, but Googling the name he gave has led me nowhere. So this is why I have sought advice from Forum members.

I have heard of some people in other classes having such difficulty getting new sails to work properly that they’ve had to buy new masts aswell!

The comment on filler in the weave is interesting. I have been confused by the different fabric tradenames used in the various quotes I have had, all describing about 6.5oz Dacron/woven polyester.

Anyway, although it may be heading towards slander in giving subjective experience on sail purchases, I am glad to hear of the things I should consider.

So thanks again, and please tell me more.

 

[Plevier]

Worth studying the sailcloth makers websites - Contender, Challenge, Dimension Polyant, Bainbridge.
You'll see the different grades.
I think Challenge has the most comprehensive technical data (for Dacron).

PS I know the former owner of Celtic C which is a Kelt, I think an 850, if contact is of interest. PM me your email and I can pass it to him.

 

[jcpa]

Thanks Troubadout, PM sent.

 

[snorkmaiden]

Sailmakers

We have old Westaway foresails that are still doing well after 30 years! We had a new main made by Le Bihan in Port La Foret, Brittany. i think that the person who says that all sail makers still in business are probably on top of their game. Be careful to specify what kind of sailing you have in mind, and make sure you understand what fabrics are being suggested. The batten pockets supplied bu Le Bihan worked very well with velcro tabs on the pockets. We didn't like the stiffer fabric to begin with, because it didn't flake nicely. Now we have fitted lazy jacks and the untidy flake is much less important than the drive we now get from the new main. Sadler 29 goes like a train.

 

[pathfinderstu]

anyone used Doyle?

 

[Seajet]

I'll second that.

Re. Westaway Sails, and I'll dispute it !

Bearing in mind I've seen some recommendations here for sails I wouldn't be seen dead with let alone use, one wonders...

I have used Westaways for years, and always had very good service and sails.

My background is in high performance dinghy racing, and sailing fast cruisers.

I've noticed before there has been some confusion between Westaways ( of Ivybridge, Devon ) and a firm called Westways which I think has gone bust now.

I have no connection with Westaways other than being a very satisfied customer not wanting to see a good company knocked; maybe some people have been unlucky but I've had 2 mains, Genoa, Storm jib and Tri-Radial chute from them with no problems whatsoever, quite the opposite.

Incidentally any decent loft like Westaways should have a database of the common classes, one should only need to have people come and measure if the boat is custom or unusual; unless this 'service' is laid on as a BS measure to make people think they're getting some forelock-tugging bespoke product which I rather suspect !

 

[NealB]

Re. Westaway Sails, and I'll dispute it !


I've noticed before there has been some confusion between Westaways ( of Ivybridge, Devon ) and a firm called Westways which I think has gone bust now.

Andy...you run the risk of opening the same can of worms again.

You know there are several of us on here who have been seriously unhappy with Westaways sails, and we are not all confused about who we were dealing with.