Which is stand-on vessel?

Very few small boats go around carrying all the signal combinations ready for the day they may need to help someone out by giving them a tow.

When i see a boat being towed I do not know the cause, failed engine being an obvious one but fishing net round prop and rudder, or lost steering.

If i saw a boat being towed I would always be grateful that 1) I was not the person needing to be towed and 2) what a nice skipper the towing vessel was to go out of his way and I would not hesitate to give way.

I think you are suffering from the common racing fault of wanting to do so well you start questioning everyone elses right to mildly inconvenience your progress.

Been there and done that - racing in Poole where the arrival of the ferry in the middle of a fleet can make the results a lottery,
 
Sorry - but I would without question in normal circumstances give wide berth to a yacht towing another ... there's good reason for that IMHO :-

a) Most yachties are not "experienced" towing skippers and may not have as much control of btheir situation as they think they have .....
b) I cannot think of any yacht I know of that carries dayshapes or lights suitable to hoist / show in a towing situation etc.

Colregs are one thing ... but PRUDENT SEAMANSHIP is also an important part of our lives on the water.

A while back I posted about an aurals question I had for MN Ticket ... DTI examiner asked me what I'd do if I had a tug and tow on port bow and not showing manouevring with difficulty / restricted in ability to manouevre signals ...
I replied that according to Colregs Rule XX blah blah blah ... I should stand on and keep course and speed and monitor with bearings etc. But in fact I would choose prudent seamanship and make bold obvious alteration to allow him to continue on - monitoring with bearings etc. My reason being that in any case it's easier for me to alter course and avoid close 1/4's than it is for him.
DTI examiner thanked me and agreed .... giving me full marks for knowing Colregs but also for Seamanship decision.

Again I have to remark - based on MN experience - Colregs are NOT cast in stone and to be adhered to regardless - they are there to guide and make safe close 1/4's situation where risk of collision may or liable to exist ...

I do not suggest ignore or throw away the rule book - but use some measure of reality and common sense ...

If I got to a situation where another boat shouts at me - then I have a serious think about what I did and why ...
 
I don't think that this situation really compares with tugs and merchant ships. A yacht beating in the light winds of yesterday can easily get within shouting distance with absolutely no danger of collision, he can tack off at any time.
A tug with a tow is a very different animal. I would get out of the way of that.
Most of these 'solent colregs' questions are not 'near collisions' at all, they are a mixture of inconsideration and failure to look far enough ahead with the occassional dick-waving contest thrown in.
What I would have done depends on what the towing yachts were. If they were clearly out to race, I would expect them to keep clear. What can be more arrogant than finishing your own race, then spoiling someone else's?
If the towed yacht is a heavy great cruiser with no one on the wheel, that's a totally different situation, closer to your tug scenario.
 
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I don't think that this situation really compares with tugs and merchant ships. A yacht beating in the light winds of yesterday can easily get within shouting distance with absolutely no danger of collision, he can tack off at any time.
A tug with a tow is a very different animal. I would get out of the way of that.
Most of these 'solent colregs' questions are not 'near collisions' at all, they are a mixture of inconsideration and failure to look far enough ahead with the occassional dick-waving contest thrown in.
What I would have done depends on what the towing yachts were. If they were clearly out to race, I would expect them to keep clear. What can be more arrogant than finishing your own race, then spoiling someone else's?
If the towed yacht is a heavy great cruiser with no one on the wheel, that's a totally different situation, closer to your tug scenario.

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I wasn't comparing tug & tow / merchant ship - just illustrating the art of prudent seamanship. If I had posted that DTI question without any other text - I am certain the "Colregs" experts on here would say "Stand on laddie !" regardless ....

The OP and his yacht situation - c'mon are people trying to tell me that they can weigh-up situations like this and decide as you suggest in latter part of your post - when often you cannot see all ... sorry I don't agree.

I prefer to play safe and be a little more forgiving on the water.
 
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I have been towed quite a long distance by no less than Mr. Refueler here, and he did give way to tacking sailboats several times, at least once by slowing down (and no I did not bump into him and he even did announce over VHF that he would slow down in order to give way as it was easier than changing course).

OK, my boat is quite small, but it isn't a rubber dinghy...

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Forgot about that one !!

031-August72007_SA018.jpg


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If I remember correctly we did a large part of a 20 mile trip like that ... must have been half ?

I've towed salvaged boats with various damages and tendencies ... one was a bilge keel job that had lost most of one keel and other bits - yawed and played havoc on end of tow - we had to go back to her and put a drogue over one side to help control her ... Not always best to put alongside.
Given that boat with one keel gone - how would OP or othyers here recognise I have dificulty with her ?

Towing Jenku was a doddle, he was experienced and helmed his boat behind me ... we had VHF contact etc. so we could manouevre well as he posted ... But not every tow is so fortunate.
 
The OP doesn't really tell us very much detail, but it's easy, facile even, to say 'I'm a good seaman, I keep well out of the way of everything", but at weekends in the solent that won't get you very far. Sometimes you have to hold your course in the face of one vessel, in order to carry out your responsibilities to another.
There are situations where I would totally give way to a yacht towing another, situations where I would expect them to give way, and many cases in between where a situation would be averted by mutually giving each other space.

It's also easy to say a yacht racing has no extra rights, but if you ever race then you should be prepared to respect other people's racing.
Sometimes the call of 'hi, we're still racing' will get an apologetic response of 'sorry I thought you'd finished' and everyone is happy. Cowes is kept alive(ish) 10months of the year by racing. To turn up for a few sunny days in the summer and expect the racing boats to accept you towing through the course RAM (i.e. halfway out of control) is perhaps asking a little much?
 
For every uncontrollable salvage tow, there are a thousand cases of towing simply due to lack of motive power.
You might as well assume every boat you meet has broken steering.
I think you recognise when something coming towards you is not under control vs just thinks you should get out of the way due to a half understanding of the colregs.
 
I have to confess a little surprise, and indeed even some dissapointment, that so many people are so irate about getting out of the way of a boat towing....

Appreciate the finer points of the colregs here, but whatever happened to decent common courtesy?

A racing boat (or a cruising boat for that matter) may be stand on under Colregs (ignoring RRS), but it seems that some people do genuinely believe from some of the posts above, that the fact of being a racer gives you the right to make someone (who is helping a fellow sailor) undertake a potentially difficult maneouvre...

As for the comment that being out on the water 12 months of the year infers some 'godly' right to be inconsiderate, i'll treat that with the contempt it deserves...

Next time the bloke might decline to offer a tow, because its too bloody difficult as noone will give him any space... and it might be you that needs the tow....

I'm glad that I sail on the east coast, because round these parts, you'd be offered help and encouragement, not criticism.
 
I was on passage on the west side of Harris, Outer Hebrides, the other day, and saw another boat. OK he was quite far away. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Morgana, I'm often in the boat doing the towing!
And have been v grateful to be the one towed.
More than once this season already.
We race keelboats, some having outboards, some not. We often tow each other and give way to others sailing into the harbour against the tide, or still racing. If we were towing and made a mess of things to the extent we influenced the results of the back markers, we would fully expect to be protested under RRS23, have to retire from the race and/or buy them a pint or two!
Equally if we are sailing and catch a gust, we will avoid those towing, when their overtaking efforts suddenly don't work. More to do with pragmatism than colregs.
It's very easy to generalise on here. I'm no way saying that all towing situations are like the above. But I would not be surprised if the towing and towed boats were racing boats too...
Where I was on sunday, the wind was light to the point where the racing vessel would be less able to alter course than the others.
If things get difficult and we need more space, politely asking for space is the way to go. I will always try to help someone who is prepared to ask.
As with many of these questions, I find my self asking 'how did this come about?' was the tow holding its course for the previous 10 minutes, then the racing yacht tacked so that it came across the tow 30 seconds later...
or did the tow alter course towards the racing yacht's path?
I don't expect they came at each other on a steady heading from over the horizon.
Makes a difference I think.
 
Thanks for all the input guys (and gals?) these tend to show that it was not 100% clear either way so let me add a couple of replies to points made.
1. A+ score to the respondent who asked if it was two Sunsy. Maybe I am biassed here but from experience when I see them in the Solent especially if they are racing as experience shows they don't always know what they are doing like calling "Starboard" when they are on "Port"! Yes I've had that.
2. I have towed yachts myself - indeed twice this year within my club including when a slightly bigger yacht's engine failed. But I certainly did not think I had my manouvrability restricted that much - speed yes! As someone said you need to anticipate more what's happening in front.
3. That I was racing and they clearly weren't I did not see as relevant - frustrating while punching the tide but not relevant.
4. Also as someone said the winds were so light that everything happened in slow motion and their shouting was from quite a distance so collision - provided I tacked - was not possible.
 
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3. That I was racing and they clearly weren't I did not see as relevant - frustrating while punching the tide but not relevant.

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I think it's relevant. Not to the colregs of course but it should be to common courtesy.

If I'm on the boat I'm usually going to the pub, an anchorage, another port or just out for a spin. Being 20 seconds later just does not impact my day. I doubt it would have made any difference to theirs.

If you're 20 seconds later it might spoil yours.

So I'd like to think I'd give way if I reasonably could in such circumstances even if I don't have to. Cue now all the people I've carved up in the past. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
 
Yes it's pretty relevant.
Sunsail would have been racing.
They would not like you or me bimbling through their start.
Do unto others etc.

scumsail are normally easily deflected by reminding them about the damage deposit.... /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
Elessar and Refueler'
Have the right view on this Topic imho.

So someone is getting a tow.Obviously in some sort of trouble.

OP is not in trouble.
Cept He might lose a place or two during the Race!

If a Fellow boater is in trouble on the Sea.
We are duty bound to help I reckon.

Blimey there is no Col Regs / stand on thinghy here.

Tiss commonsense.

Commercial Guys, Ferries are at work.
For a Living.
Us Pleasure Guys / Racers are just out for Fun.
OK , this was not a Commercial tow it seems.

However it amazes Me ref racers and pleasure peeps.
The attitude sometimes.

'We were the Stand on Vessel' etc etc.

We are just out for a bit of fun.
For the Pros, they are making a living.

For Me, the towed vessel had a Prob.
Stuff whatever the Regs are.
Give the Guy some room and the benefit of doubt.
 
Ah, but you don't have to be "obviously in trouble" just because you are towed. When Refueler towed my I wasn't in trouble at all, but there was no wind and we just thought it was more economic and faster if he towed me with his mighty Perkins than I'd chugged along with my tiny outboard...

Now this Lady was obviously in distress however, as i found her rowing with engine failure. She asked for a lift and I towed her - under sail! Now what do the colregs say about that? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
The colregs say nothing about that. Nothing to be said, it does not change the situation at all, you're still a sailing boat with the same responsibilities etc.
 
Who gives a toss about the semantics, the spirt of the collregs is about common sense and keeping out of each others way, not legal pernickety nit picking and a desire to be filled with righteousness. A guy towing needs a break, shapes or no shapes, common sense and a bit of generosity is all that is needed.
 
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Who gives a toss about the semantics, the spirt of the collregs is about common sense and keeping out of each others way, not legal pernickety nit picking and a desire to be filled with righteousness. A guy towing needs a break, shapes or no shapes, common sense and a bit of generosity is all that is needed.

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The problem as I see it - many believe ColRegs to be cast in stone and yee shall be Hung Drawn and 1/4'd to EVER consider not following them in every circumstance no matter what .... in their eyes the score is : ColRegs 1 : Seamanship / Common Sense 0

Sad ....
 
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