Which chart provider

[ColleyV8]

Looking to get a set of charts for the North Wales cruising area

Found 2 sets, Imray 2700 and Admiralty small craft 5609

Both roughly same price but Imray go further down to milford and parts of Wales

Which set is best for cruising, any opinions?

 

[B27]

Not in your area, so feel free to ignore!

I quite like the Admiralty folio sets.
I've got a spare plastic wallet from an ancient copy I bought on ebay, so I can load the charts into the plastics with four showing outward.
Mostly we are looking at Navionics on an ipad or android tablet, and also drawing fairly heavily on the fact we know our area fairly well. Navionics is £30-odd quid or free trials so long as you can invent burner emails.
Next year we intend to be pushing a little further afield, which will be as much about pilot books as it's about charts.

In the past, beyond the folio sets, I 've preferred Imray as being the right size. scale and scope for the amateur yacht. But that's maybe an out of date raggy perspective.

At close quarters, we do look quite hard at the info in the Almanac for approaches and port plans etc, as well as 'cruising guide' type pilot books.
Unless you are getting close and personal to deserted beaches and all that, you can get by with a large scale chart and a few port plans, provided you know what you need to know if things go off piste. But a readable book by someone who's explored the area is worth a punt.

 

[James_Calvert]

Don't know the area but if you don't have either of them yet I'd get the Admiralty one first. They are in the process of being withdrawn and it would be a shame to realise too late they suited you better. In other areas they provide full detailed charting, just as good as a fullsize set of their charts, but in a more convenient format.

I think Imray are great. But there are places where they don't show stuff on as big a scale as the Admiralty ones, and also harbour chartlets can be superimposed on other charts, in clear blue water maybe, but I can find that distracting sometimes.

 

[ColleyV8]

Thanks, will get down to a chart shop and have a look at them, I saw the admiralty one was being discontinued

I have the cruising guides and pilota for the area to help with planning entrances

 

[dunedin]

Thanks, will get down to a chart shop and have a look at them, I saw the admiralty one was being discontinued

I have the cruising guides and pilota for the area to help with planning entrances

Yes, the Admiralty Small Craft Folios were discontinued a couple of years back. But the individual Small Craft Charts are, at least in theory, still available - but they are only available by Print on Demand, and as no chandleries have this capability they need to be ordered online from a main chart agent. Still good charts, but the loss of over the counter availability and increased price has probably effectively killed them (which was probably UKHO intent!)
The key thing about charts is Scale. If going close to shore need most detailed (which Imray C series generally aren't, but Imray Folios, where available, are)

 

[SaltyC]

Worth checking the coverage of Admiralty and Imray.
Last summer, the charter boat out of Falmouth had the Imray West Country folio, which only covered up Carrick Roads as far as circa Turnaware Point and an Imray C series for further up towards Truro. Not ideal scale for pillotage.
My old Admiralty folio used to cover all the way at appropriate scale.

 

[B27]

Looks like I bought the last edition of the Admiralty West Country folio.
£50 or so for the pack was fair value, £15 a sheet is not.
Looks like Imray have this market to themselves now.

I see that Imray give a download code for a digital copy when you buy the paper version.
Anyone have any comment on that?

Edit. That's almost completely wrong, I looked at ebay:
Admiralty Small Craft Leisure Charts 5609 | North West Wales | eBay
Complete folio ~£60 inc P'n'P.

Are the Imray packs on 'crew-resistant' paper?

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Basically, remember that Imray repackage data from the UKHO. They aren't originators of the data. UKHO (Admiralty) charts are the gold standard for the data; all other chart providers including electronic charts (except in smalll areas, such as those provided by Antares and some local chartlets elsewhere) simply buy the data from UKHO and reformat it to meet the needs of their target audience. Imray provide a very good service, (one of my former colleagues came to us from them!) but they don't originate data. This inevitably, and with the best will in the world, means that there is the potential for error creeping in. Further, a relatively small outfit like Imray simply can't invest in QA to the extent that UKHO does (I guess that at least 50% of UKHO's effort goes into QA; I did some for them!)

A further point is that Imray do not adhere to international standards for the presentation of charts; Admiralty charts do. This may not matter if all your sailing is within the area covered by Imray, but for those going further afield, it may be an issue.

 

[ColleyV8]

Thanks everyone, good concise answers, think I'm going for the imray pack as it will give passage planning for entire Irish sea, and get better scale for closer areas, have updated my nav maps for plotter so have sonar as well

 

[rgarside]

The current UKHO print-on-demand price for a single leisure folio chart is £15, if you order more than 15 charts you only pay 25% of the single chart price for each chart - so as long as you order 15 or more the cost works out similar to the cost of the old folio price, and they are up-to-date when printed.

 

[Sandy]

Given the Admiralty have abandoned the leisure market I'd go for Imray as very soon it will be all you can get.

 

[ColleyV8]

Given the Admiralty have abandoned the leisure market I'd go for Imray as very soon it will be all you can get.

Wasn't aware of that?

 

[Whaup367]

Given the Admiralty have abandoned the leisure market I'd go for Imray as very soon it will be all you can get.

My question is about digital charts, though, not printed. Are either of these available on a chartplotter; and if so are the survey dates accessible?

 

[dunedin]

Given the Admiralty have abandoned the leisure market I'd go for Imray as very soon it will be all you can get.

As a result of CA and RIN objections (raised personally with their CEO), and others, the UKHO had to backtrack from their public announcement of withdrawal of all paper by 2026 and think this is now provisionally 2030, but subject to having solutions to address the lack of alternatives acceptable to MCA.

 

[dunedin]

My question is about digital charts, though, not printed. Are either of these available on a chartplotter; and if so are the survey dates accessible?

Good point. Regarding digital charts, as you probably know there are two different types, raster charts (basically electronic images of paper charts) and vector charts (which is the format the source data is now held in by UKHO etc).

Raster charts USUALLY still have the same notes as printed on the paper charts, which you can fiddle around to find eventually if your display software permits (eg can using UKHO on MemoryMap app). BUT some newer versions such as the UKHO “Quilted HD” versions I bought this year lose the notes through the “quilting” (more seamless merging together) of the charts.

Commercial vector charts (ENCs) displayed on ship navigation systems (ECIDIS) do have access to the information on chart dates or CATZOC - Categories of Zones of Confidence in chart maker speak.

BUT as far as we are aware NO suppliers of leisure craft vector charts provide access to the chart sources information. This is a concern that RIN and the CA have raised with the major leisure chart publishers (Navionics, C Map, Lighthouse) etc, but AFAIK none have yet implemented change to enable this. The concern is that you may see lots of nice depths and contours, but not the CATZOC / Sources information which say the last survey was a rowing boat and lead line in 1875 (or worse).

The choice of electronic charts that you can use depends heavily on the chart plotter / MFD make, model and software version. Some are tied to a single chart supplier, some have 2-3 options. Most are only vector charts. Hence need to check what your device supports (or post details of kit on here and somebody will be able to advise).
To access raster charts you generally need an app on a laptop computer or more commonly now a tablet.

Hope this helps

 

[Sandy]

As a result of CA and RIN objections (raised personally with their CEO), and others, the UKHO had to backtrack from their public announcement of withdrawal of all paper by 2026 and think this is now provisionally 2030, but subject to having solutions to address the lack of alternatives acceptable to MCA.

2030 is only seven years away. Soon in my books.

Their current pricing is abominable as you cannot purchase a leisure portfolio.

 

[rgarside]

Their current pricing is abominable as you cannot purchase a leisure portfolio.

See post #10 above.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

I use Imray paper and Imray Navigator app on my iPad. Love it.

 

[Sandy]

See post #10 above.

See post #16 above.

Working out the price of replacing SC 5611.

£15 * 28 = £420 * 25% = £105.00

Last time I bought the set it was £44.00.

 

[B27]

A2 prints from my local shop are about £4 a go, so the price is not unrealistic.

I suspect that the rise of Navionics means far fewer people buy paper charts.
Imray have gone into direct competition with the folio format.
The market is not what it was.