which anchor are you using?

[Allan]

On my boat, Chausey a Westerly 33, I have three CQRs and a Bruce copy. I plan to buy a Delta in the near future. I have decided against buying a Rocna or a Fortress. My reason being that the manufactures of them do not have enough confidences in their products to let word of mouth etc. produce good sales but insist on coming on furums slagging off rivals product. That, to me, shows a lack of confidence to me. Friends with Deltas are happy and they don't seem to see the need to slag off other products.
Allan

 

[Brian@Fortress]

Allan,

I completely understand your sentiments. We have been in business for over 20 years now and we certainly are fully aware of the value of "word of mouth" advertising.

However, for the past 5 years I have watched silently as the other anchor manufacturer you mentioned has sought out to destroy the reputation of our company and many other fine anchor manufacturers, and I have simply had enough.

I decided that I will come to the defense of not only our company, but other anchor manufacturers as well when misinformation is being unscrupulously presented in a public forum by this new anchor manufacturer.

Best regards,
Brian

Fortress Marine Anchors

 

[craigsmith]

You mean: for five years you've been watching innovative competitors pull the wind from your sails, with one in particular causing you particular pressure; and, finally realizing that a product based on a 1930s design - and refusing or unable to innovate yourself - is keeping you chained to the past, you finally resort to squawks of slander and disparagement.

 

[Brian@Fortress]

You mean: for five years you've been watching innovative competitors pull the wind from your sails, with one in particular causing you particular pressure; and, finally realizing that a product based on a 1930s design - and refusing or unable to innovate yourself - is keeping you chained to the past, you finally resort to squawks of slander and disparagement.

The bottom line is that Rocna is being out-performed in anchor tests conducted around the world, and by "1930s design anchors" as you call ours.

Further still, your "innovative" anchors are tearing up sea bottoms, as evidenced by a video below that Sarca in Australia, who Rocna originally copied, put out:

 

[craigsmith]

You must be right, tests conducted by anchor manufacturers are after all a good reliable benchmark... especially YouTube videos from one that isn't afraid to engage in a little trickery with their beam lever scam. Nevermind the sole comprehensive scientifically valid test of recent years that places the Sarca for example mid-range and calls it a "medium performer", the Rocna top, and the Fortress - well, excellent but damaged.

But, better to praise the competitor that's not really a threat to you if it helps you attack the one that is, yes?

The comment that Rocna copied Sarca is of course an outright falsification. If it is a copy it's rather poor - the anchors are nothing like each other, fundamentally let alone in detail.

I always had a lot of respect for the Fortress name, and still often recommend the product to people as a fine choice of secondary/stern anchor. However your (Brian) behavior recently, in person at boat shows from what I am told - in addition to the smear campaign you're waging online against Rocna, has heads shaking in bemusement.

 

[Csail]

I looked at fortress but 500 quid so why not take measurments of someones and make your own?

 

[Coaster]

I suspect that aggressive posts by anchor manufacturers and sellers will do more harm than good, to sales of the particular marques. These forums are quite successful at sorting wheat from chaff. If I were an anchor maker I'd turn the other cheek when being criticised. In the long term, if the product is good, most people won't be deterred by invalid criticism.

And for what it's worth I have a Rocna bower anchor and a Fortress kedge.

 

[bluedragon]

The Manson Supreme is a poor copy of the Rocna, likewise the Kobra of the Delta. Stick to the genuine originals.

Got to agree you with Coaster that Rocna in particular do themselves no favours by this constant aggressive attitude and especially the "copy" allegations made against the Manson Supreme on this and other forums.

As I understand the history of the Rocna, they took the basic Delta design and "improved" it. Nothing wrong with that...it's called innovation...and the modern world has been built upon such initiatives over the centuries. But then don't call "foul" when somebody else comes along and does the same thing...!!

From a design perspective, the Rocna does actually look like a Delta with a roll bar (which idea itself came from the German Buegel did it not?). Side-by-side the Supreme looks substantially different to the Rocna, though using the same principle. When it suits them, Rocna use the word "copy" to imply "clone" and that's wrong and misleading to my mind.

Whatever the tests say or do not say, I'd be very happy with either a Rocna or a Manson Supreme on my boat. I believe in the principle of these anchors, and have a high regard also for the Delta and the Kobra II (which again is not a "copy"). Let your product speak for itself in practice Craig. Slagging-off every other design just irritates me and many others on this forum. At least the guy from Fortress admitted it may not be the best in all situations...that's honest and I applaud him for it.

PS - on a personal note, it's so sad to hear what's happening in Christchurch, NZ, at present. I know some people out there and it seems worse than we've picked-up on the news here. I think the Libya story has suppressed at lot of the real tragedy in the your part of the world.

 

[craigsmith]

Apart from a similar shank profile, the Rocna is nothing like a Delta. The Rocna has a concave fluke and is generally totally dissimilar to the Delta plow.

The Manson Supreme however is a direct outright copy of the Rocna. Every fundamental feature is identical, but produced cheaper with several serious cost-cutting short-cuts that result in the reduced quality and performance outlined in the link. They produced their copy after breaking off talks with the Rocna designer to license production.

 

[Brian@Fortress]

If that is true, then deal with your issues with Manson only and stop disparaging the other anchor manufacturers. You have no idea what ill will you are bringing upon yourself and how you are pushing potential customers away from Rocna, and possibly even towards Manson.

And my sincerest thoughts and prayers to the good people in your country who have suffered so greatly during this tragedy. Our company owner spent some quality time there in NZ during his circumnavigation and he spoke very highly of your people.

Best regards,
Brian

Fortress Marine Anchors

 

[bluedragon]

The Manson Supreme however is a direct outright copy of the Rocna. Every fundamental feature is identical, but produced cheaper with several serious cost-cutting short-cuts that result in the reduced quality and performance outlined in the link. They produced their copy after breaking off talks with the Rocna designer to license production.

I had a Manson Supreme on my last boat. I looked very carefully at Rocnas on other boats. To my eye they were NOT the same...similar, yes, same principle, yes...but not the same. But...let's say I'm wrong...my eyesight is failing...and I don't understand design principles...why aren't you taking legal action to protect your intellectual property??

 

[idpnd]

The Manson Supreme is a poor copy of the Rocna, likewise the Kobra of the Delta. Stick to the genuine originals.

I couldn't agree more! Don't buy an overpriced Chinese-manufactured imitation of the German-made Buegel, go for the original

 

[anniebray]

Stowable rocna 15

Yes, you can buy a stowable Rocna 15kg anchor !!

Until very recently, I had no idea such a product existed & if you try finding it on Rocna's website you won't succeed. I found it quite by accident looking up Rocna 15 on Piplers site. I already have a Manson Supreme 25lb which is the biggest I can fit in my anchor locker but have lately realised that I would be wiser to go for a 35lber (=15Kg). I probably would have purchased a Manson 15Kg (cheaper than Rocna ) if I hadn't discovered the stowable. But I still had the problem of stowage and I wasn't keen to stow on deck so the Rocna has become my choice.

 

[Chrusty 1]

"If the bottom is any combination of sand, mud, or clay, the Fortress should perform well.....but if grass, weeds, or rocks, then a Delta or Bruce might be a better option, although no anchor is completely dependable in those types of bottoms."

I sail out of N. Devon, and have found over the years that a fairly hefty fisherman with good wide but sharp flukes works well in the grass, weeds and rocks situation, a bit more of a handful on deck though I would have to admit. I know nothing about these "modern" anchors that seem so beloved of many on these forums, I like and use a Brittany as well as CQR and fisherman. I suppose it's because I am fairly lazy, and can't be bothered researching much about the "new ones".

The Brittany, the CQR and the Fisherman have all worked for me over the years, in various situations in the Bristol Channel and further up the Welsh coast. I agree with those who say that they find these silly spats between anchor manufacturers to be a bit tedious to say the least. They are certainly not steering me in the direction of their products by behaving in this way.

I will just say this to them, I don't believe that you are winning any customers by your behaviour, and I think you would both do well to wind your necks in a bit, but I don't suppose you will take any notice of the likes of me will you, after all, I am just a potential customer, and who needs those eh?

 

[Brian@Fortress]

Chrusty1,

Good to hear that you have found an anchor combination that works well for you in your area.

I also appreciate your input about the way I have interacted with the other anchor manufacturer, and your opinion is duly noted.

Regards,
Brian

Fortress Marine Anchors

 

[Chrusty 1]

Hi Brian,

I'm afraid that I may have been a bit harsh in what I said, but I feel that both of you would be wise to refrain from "having a go" within these forums. Craig is probably more active than you in that regard, whatever the facts of the matter are regarding anchors and their relative performance, I feel that it is better for manufacturers to just sit back a bit and allow us potential customers to decide what we want to buy for ourselves. That way, none of you will alienate anybody.

Well I think I have said more than enough, so I will sling me hook!

Regards, Ray.

 

[Mansonanchors55]

Apart from a similar shank profile, the Rocna is nothing like a Delta. The Rocna has a concave fluke and is generally totally dissimilar to the Delta plow.

The Manson Supreme however is a direct outright copy of the Rocna. Every fundamental feature is identical, but produced cheaper with several serious cost-cutting short-cuts that result in the reduced quality and performance outlined in the link. They produced their copy after breaking off talks with the Rocna designer to license production.

Dear all subscribers.
Whilst Manson rarely choose to answer the ravings of Craig Smith, his remarks above are both inflamatory and completely incorrect. Let us reassure all readers of the following:

Manson proudly stand behind the workmanship and quality of every anchor product we produce and have produced for nearly 40 years.

Question:
Craig have you ever welded anything?
NO.
Do you or anyone in the Rocna company have steel manufacturing experience/degrees in metallurgy or 40 years of experience in fabrication? Any Lloyd's Register Approved welders work for Rocna?
NO.

For you to state that Manson have made cost cutting changes to a product when you have taken your product to China is just ridiculous. Manson didn't copy Rocna, build a bridge and get over yourself. At 24years old you have a lot to learn about life.

The tugboat operator (Thomson Towboats) that conducted the RINA testing with you said you had to return to shore when you broke you anchors during testing. FACT.

Please stop misinforming the public about what Manson have and haven't done and promote your product solely on it's own merits. If your product is so good why do you have to defame/denegrate everyone else's product. It isn't good business, it isn't honest and it is simply lying to the public/consumer.

Manson Anchors always have and continue to take the respect given to them by boaters in choosing our product incredibly seriously. An anchor is a safety device and arguably the most important piece of equipment on a boat. We have done this for almost 40 years and can gaurantee that our product is of the highest quality, built using the best quality steel and our staff the highest qualified anchor fabricators in the world. FACT.

Yours faithfully
Manson Anchors

 

[joenne]

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the posts. Talking about anchors can be quite emotional I noticed
Just to let you know, I bought a 7.5kg original Bruce anchor for £25 (2nd hand of course). I will give that a try this summer. I am not planning to anchor over night and I get more experience about what I want regarding achoring so I can make an 'informed' choice and spend more money next year!

Jeroen

 

[Allan]

Dear all subscribers.
Whilst Manson rarely choose to answer the ravings of Craig Smith, his remarks above are both inflamatory and completely incorrect. Let us reassure all readers of the following:

Manson proudly stand behind the workmanship and quality of every anchor product we produce and have produced for nearly 40 years.

Question:
Craig have you ever welded anything?
NO.
Do you or anyone in the Rocna company have steel manufacturing experience/degrees in metallurgy or 40 years of experience in fabrication? Any Lloyd's Register Approved welders work for Rocna?
NO.

For you to state that Manson have made cost cutting changes to a product when you have taken your product to China is just ridiculous. Manson didn't copy Rocna, build a bridge and get over yourself. At 24years old you have a lot to learn about life.

The tugboat operator (Thomson Towboats) that conducted the RINA testing with you said you had to return to shore when you broke you anchors during testing. FACT.

Please stop misinforming the public about what Manson have and haven't done and promote your product solely on it's own merits. If your product is so good why do you have to defame/denegrate everyone else's product. It isn't good business, it isn't honest and it is simply lying to the public/consumer.

Manson Anchors always have and continue to take the respect given to them by boaters in choosing our product incredibly seriously. An anchor is a safety device and arguably the most important piece of equipment on a boat. We have done this for almost 40 years and can gaurantee that our product is of the highest quality, built using the best quality steel and our staff the highest qualified anchor fabricators in the world. FACT.

Yours faithfully
Manson Anchors

Funny how young Craigy has chosen not answer such specific points!
Allan

 

[craigsmith]

I know you're just trolling, but I suppose for the record it's necessary to repeat -

~

Craig have you ever welded anything?
NO.

They don't know this to be true, but it's a red herring argument. I'm not a welder and don't claim to be. Peter, the Rocna designer, and the production engineering people involved in Rocna fabrication, however, have extensive relevent experience.

Do you or anyone in the Rocna company have steel manufacturing experience/degrees in metallurgy or 40 years of experience in fabrication?
NO.

Yes.

Any Lloyd's Register Approved welders work for Rocna?
NO.

Why would they? A strawman argument: Rocna has nothing to do with Lloyd's.

For you to state that Manson have made cost cutting changes to a product when you have taken your product to China is just ridiculous.

There's a significant difference between valid and sensible measures to reduce costing, and those which result in serious flaws in construction, a weaker product, and poorer performance.

At 24years old you have a lot to learn about life.

I know it's just an attempt at waving away anything they don't like hearing by way of condescension, but I'm not 24. Unfortunately not very close to it either anymore

The tugboat operator (Thomson Towboats) that conducted the RINA testing with you said you had to return to shore to get replacements when your broke you anchors during testing. FACT.

This is correct. With a tug capable of a 20 tonne bollard pull, and you're using gear sized for 100 kg anchors, if you hang an anchor up on something on the bottom, and tell the operator to keep increasing the force until something lets go, well something eventually lets go. I would like to know if Manson also know about the cracked welds on the Supreme we were testing, the result of the upper plate of the thin laminated fluke distorting?

~

I think it's unfortunate when a manufacturer who has no inhouse design talent, and produces only knock-offs of others' designs, resorts to fabricating their own version of the truth when the people they injure let the cat out of the bag rather than quietly going away. Rather than discussing the serious issues with their own product(s), they attempt to mislead the public about the very product they copied and are trying to undermine - all the while shouting disparagement.