Where is your radar, flybridge or below?

[Robin]

I know it would be ideal to have a display in both positions but if only one then which, flybridge or below?

I ask because we (after 40+ years of rag and stick but mobo novices) are moving to the USA to live on a mobo, most probably a trawler style motor yacht about 45-50ft. Many of the ones we are looking at on the internet have radar on the flybridge but not at the lower helm position which surprises me a bit. In fog or heavy rain which is the preferred steering position, up top or below? I have seen boats with all the main electronics at the lower helm, but it seems those are in the minority, might be just coincidence though.

Next question, why do the majority of USA mobos NOT have bow thrusters when it seems over here most do?

 

[neale]

I know it would be ideal to have a display in both positions but if only one then which, flybridge or below?

I ask because we (after 40+ years of rag and stick but mobo novices) are moving to the USA to live on a mobo, most probably a trawler style motor yacht about 45-50ft. Many of the ones we are looking at on the internet have radar on the flybridge but not at the lower helm position which surprises me a bit. In fog or heavy rain which is the preferred steering position, up top or below? I have seen boats with all the main electronics at the lower helm, but it seems those are in the minority, might be just coincidence though.

Next question, why do the majority of USA mobos NOT have bow thrusters when it seems over here most do?

Most flybridge boats do not offer great visibility down below, so radar is very useful on the lower helm. Equally, because of this poor visibility and the external poor visibility, it might be prudent to be up top in fog or rain so a radar is useful there too. I think I would put it up top if I could only have one.

Fact is, that in the UK, many flybridge lower helms very rarely, if ever, get used.

If you end up with only one radar display, it shouldn't be a big job to swap it to the other helm if experience dictates that's where you most need it.

 

[MapisM]

most probably a trawler style motor yacht about 45-50ft. Many of the ones we are looking at on the internet have radar on the flybridge but not at the lower helm position which surprises me a bit.

I'm surprised, too.
I've also seen some trawlers in the US, but most if not all of them had just the essential electronics upstair, and all the bells and whistles in the pilothouse. Some of them don't even have a helm station at all, upstair!
Anyway, I'd definitely go for a full dashboard in the p/h rather than in the f/b.
Also because on any proper trawler (as opposed to most planing boats), p/h visibility is not a problem - particularly with reverse raked windshield.

 

[DAKA]

I know it would be ideal to have a display in both positions but if only one then which, flybridge or below?

I ask because we (after 40+ years of rag and stick but mobo novices) are moving to the USA to live on a mobo, most probably a trawler style motor yacht about 45-50ft. Many of the ones we are looking at on the internet have radar on the flybridge but not at the lower helm position which surprises me a bit. In fog or heavy rain which is the preferred steering position, up top or below? I have seen boats with all the main electronics at the lower helm, but it seems those are in the minority, might be just coincidence though.

Next question, why do the majority of USA mobos NOT have bow thrusters when it seems over here most do?

In favour of upper helm

You can play with it so when the fog comes you know exactly how to use it
You can stay upstairs listening as long as possible, its very quiet upstairs.

In favour of lower helm

As soon as it gets really foggy in the UK it is so cold you have to go downstairs and put the heating on, but as you will only use the radar once/twice a year you will be clueless as to how to use all the features on offer.

To summarise
you need it repeating, sorry.

However I have to qualify my statement

Check with the locals to see if your fog is going to be cold or warm before you waste money with the downstairs one.

 

[piratos]

Ups and Downs

I got an offer I couldnt refuse, and installed the radar only at the lower station, which means its hardly used.

Im sure that Im not the only one with tinted glass at the lower station, and when there is fog you need the Radar, and it means you need somebody at the fly for a decent outlook - and somebody at the Radar as well

If you can make sure you can use the Radar on the fly and at lower station, and if you install a chartplotter both places anyway, its a matter of wiring the system for both anyway...??

Best regards

 

[Robin]

Thanks guys so far, still not a definitive answer though! I hadn't thought of the tinted screen problem but can see that might make fog lookout by eyeball harder below and require a FB lookout as well. Ideally I'd like both.

I'm well used to using radar, so not a problem needing practice in good vis from upstairs. On our yachts it was always down below.

Some of the boats we looked at (motor yachts rather than pure trawler yachts) didn't even have a downstairs helm position and those we have scratched totally as no good for us.

A lot if not all of what we are seeing have fully enclosed FBs with bimini tops, fronts, sides and back. That makes the FB tenable in wet weather, even cold weather but I guess not the best place in a seaway or a rolly beam sea (albeit some boats do have stabilisers)?

I like boats with separate pilot houses but insisting on that eliminates a lot of good others.

I have even seen a few with two separate radars with scanners mounted one above the other, this might be a solution if interlinking a display or moving a set physically isn't practicable.

All comments gratefully received!

 

[MapisM]

I have even seen a few with two separate radars with scanners mounted one above the other, this might be a solution if interlinking a display or moving a set physically isn't practicable.

Ermm... wait, actually the reason for two radomes, aside from redundancy, is that you can "specialise" them by range.
Most boats with double scanners can use either from both helm stations.
And depending on the number of screens available, also at the same time.
That's the ideal setup, obviously, but not cheap.

 

[Robin]

Ermm... wait, actually the reason for two radomes, aside from redundancy, is that you can "specialise" them by range.
Most boats with double scanners can use either from both helm stations.
And depending on the number of screens available, also at the same time.
That's the ideal setup, obviously, but not cheap.

Yes I understand that, but it would also be a way of adding to an existing setup perhaps. Ideally we would go for a full set top and bottom interlinked but when buying second hand you get what you get or can afford afterwards!

We are looking at displacement trawler styles like the Defever 48 or 49 but haven't yet ruled out the in-betweeners like Tradewinds 47 or Hi-Star 48s which are 14kts cruise maybe 18kts top. The reason we are not ruling out these is that they come considerably cheaper (like $100,000 cheaper) and the difference invested would pay the fuel bills and still leave the capital in the bank, also less to depreciate. There is a particularly nice Hi-Star on the market at present and no Defevers at all we would even go look at.

 

[Divemaster1]

Ermm... wait, actually the reason for two radomes, aside from redundancy, is that you can "specialise" them by range.
Most boats with double scanners can use either from both helm stations.
And depending on the number of screens available, also at the same time.
That's the ideal setup, obviously, but not cheap.

... or you go for a setup like my Koden, where you can double the scanner speed and use split screen for twin ranges... Buy the redundancy part though.... but on a coastal cruiser ??

 

[MapisM]

... or you go for a setup like my Koden, where you can double the scanner speed and use split screen for twin ranges...

No experience at all on any Koden equipment, but I very much doubt that you can have two completely different regulations running at the same time on the same unit, let alone on a single screen.
I mean, when you have a long range radar, say 72nm, and another more "normal" one, say 24 or 36nm, the typical usage is to keep the first running with a high sensitivity regulation on its max range, hence using it for weather monitoring, while the latter works with a much shorter setting and tuning, for collision avoidance, possibly with alarms. And with AIS targets (if available) shown just on this one, not on the first, where they are not relevant.
I've never seen a single unit which can effectively handle that, but what do I know?
These days, any sort of electronics gizmo is already old by the time you're done fitting it on the boat...

 

[jonoR]

I would be worried about the amount of micro waves when using radar on flybridge, unless the scanner is higher than your head. I thought that was why they were only used down stairs?

 

[Robin]

Scanner height on what we are looking at isn't a problem as it would be well clear.

Agree about anything electronic being out of date before you fit it and in some ways it would be better to buy a boat with no modern stuff and do a complete new system, rather than adapt what is there.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

When I boated in the UK, we often crossed the Channel and encountered fog. Because every boat I had at that time only had a radar at the lower helm, obviously this meant retreating below. But I always felt that this was wrong because even if the lower helm had good visibility with untinted windows, the visibility would never be as good as up on the flybridge. Also, driving from below meant you had no chance of hearing any sound signals emitted by other vessels.
So, on that basis, the safest and most useful place to locate the radar would be up on the flybridge but of course, the ideal solution is to have separate screens at both stations although both screens must have all the controls not just a master/repeater arrangement

 

[Robin]

When I boated in the UK, we often crossed the Channel and encountered fog. Because every boat I had at that time only had a radar at the lower helm, obviously this meant retreating below. But I always felt that this was wrong because even if the lower helm had good visibility with untinted windows, the visibility would never be as good as up on the flybridge. Also, driving from below meant you had no chance of hearing any sound signals emitted by other vessels.
So, on that basis, the safest and most useful place to locate the radar would be up on the flybridge but of course, the ideal solution is to have separate screens at both stations although both screens must have all the controls not just a master/repeater arrangement

Thanks Deleted User, that makes sense. I'm used to having the radar below at the chart table on a yacht with no eyeball vision below but SWMBO in the cockpit. The mobo options are all new to me and ideally one at both locations with controls at both would be best.

Do you have FB radar now? Is it built in or is it removed or covered when not in use? I've seen some nice cabinets with flush mounted radars and plotters in, but also some that were just on the normal mounts with the cables to the rear exposed which would worry me in both a waterproof and thiefproof context!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Do you have FB radar now? Is it built in or is it removed or covered when not in use? I've seen some nice cabinets with flush mounted radars and plotters in, but also some that were just on the normal mounts with the cables to the rear exposed which would worry me in both a waterproof and thiefproof context!

No, I dont have a radar on my f/b, only below. Thats the way most mobos are set up by the manufacturer. In 9 seasons in the Med, I've only encountered fog once compared to several times a season in the UK and as with most fast mobos, we tend to get to where we're going before dark, so radar is less useful in the Med although I do use it regularly to keep my hand in. Certainly though, if I still boated in the UK and I had the money to throw at the boat, I would have radar screens at both stations.
Luckily on Ferrettis, they have a f/b helm console which can be lowered electrically to hide all the nav kit so security isn't an issue although a determined tealeaf can nick anything if he puts his mind to it

 

[Divemaster1]

Koden

No experience at all on any Koden equipment ..... I've never seen a single unit which can effectively handle that, but what do I know?
These days, any sort of electronics gizmo is already old by the time you're done fitting it on the boat...

Koden MDP 1240, with 4Kw open array 24 & 48 RPM - 0.25 to 48M

Set antenna to 48 RPM and split screen.... similar to this ...

Individual adjustments for each of the scren splits ... then every second sweep of the antenna goes to right / left radar image ... in effect giving you two 24 RPM individually adjustable screen images.

Takes some time to get used to and set up, but brilliant when done and now set up on one of the default function keys, so rapid activation, with pre-sets is possible...

 

[Robin]

No, I dont have a radar on my f/b, only below. Thats the way most mobos are set up by the manufacturer. In 9 seasons in the Med, I've only encountered fog once compared to several times a season in the UK and as with most fast mobos, we tend to get to where we're going before dark, so radar is less useful in the Med although I do use it regularly to keep my hand in. Certainly though, if I still boated in the UK and I had the money to throw at the boat, I would have radar screens at both stations.
Luckily on Ferrettis, they have a f/b helm console which can be lowered electrically to hide all the nav kit so security isn't an issue although a determined tealeaf can nick anything if he puts his mind to it

Thanks again Deleted User, it makes it strange that so many of the US boats do only have it at the FB position. I don't know how often fog is an issue in the USA, but we will be Chesapeake Bay based and will be up/down the ICW where I know it does occur, plus it is busy and sometimes confined waters. Most of the time the FB position would be king if only because of the temperatures, but then again Chesapeake in winter can be very cold.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Thanks again Deleted User, it makes it strange that so many of the US boats do only have it at the FB position.

That will be because on most US boats, the f/b helm is the only helm position and the lower helm is vestigial only, if it is fitted at all. In Europe of course, it tends to be the other way round. I think the fact that many US boats only have a f/b helm comes from their sportfishing tradition where it is necessary to be as high as possible to spot fish and to maximise visibility for backing down when one is hooked. For sure, the f/b helms on US boats are generally much more luxurious than Euro boats, not only in terms of having full instrumentation and nav kit but also in terms of having better wind protection, proper helm seats, all round covers and hardtops. In some ways, the US arrangement is better because most of the time, you drive a f/b boat from the f/b anyway and it is costly and wasteful of space to have a duplicate helm downstairs

 

[MapisM]

Koden MDP 1240, with...

Wow, nice bit of kit, by the look of it.
Maybe I'm just out of touch on all the bells and whistles of modern electronics, because I can't imagine Furuno, Raym or Garmin not keeping up with Koden.
Though I also suppose that some users aren't even aware of all the features of their system.
I recently spoke with the owner of a boat with a top-of-the-line-HD-digital-whatever Garmin radar, and he did mention some of its terrific features (according to him, anyway), but not this one.
Oh, well. At the end of the day, whenever I've cruised in conditions where the radar was a must, I never felt the need for anything more sophisticated than my old green CRT inside the pilothouse...
After all, I reckon that if it's good enough for SAR boats, it has to be ok also for reaching my favourite swimming spots!

 

[MapisM]

That will be because on most US boats, the f/b helm is the only helm position and the lower helm is vestigial only, if it is fitted at all.

Yes and no Mike.
I mean, that is definitely the case with sportfishermen boats, but since the OP mentioned trawlers, I replied along those lines in my previous post.
And also in the US, all proper trawlers are built the other way round.
Some of them (albeit the most extreme ones, battleship - style) have no helm at all upstair, just the access for handling the rib, aerials maintenance and possibly climbing to the monkey bridge.