Where can I get one of these?

[wakeup]

If you can get the rake of the stairs to suit you then I would go for the steel open design. There is something a bit 'traderish' about the other solution(even though in glass not teak) and it would have to be 'bob on' or you would forever spend your time starring at it if it ain't right, whereas the the steel version kinda mostly looks right except the visual interface between the counter top and the stairs. If there was a way to resolve the 'tension' in that area.

 

[Hurricane]

Yes, this is mainly why I posted the pic.
The rail in the photo is very strong but only half of it protrudes - the other half extends to the upper deck as a rail and is attached to the side of the stairway so this example might not be appropriate in your case.
See here

But judging from our rail, I would think you could get away with a smaller rail than the one you previously sketched.


Another (serious) point.
I should think that the actual hatch will be in a raised moulding and set at an angle. I would think that FL will use a standard Trend hatch - all the builders seem to. If this is the case, the aft end of the hatch would be lower than the forward edge. This should give more headroom and answer some of the earlier points raised. Or are FL simply going to have a hatch level with the FB deck? You may need to ask some questions here?

Here are a couple more pics of the Princess hatch - one from below ane from on top.

FWIW, I still think that spiral stairs are the way to go. OK so you cant gain from the step you already have but you would gain by "stepping off" towards port rather than the first step being towards aft. And with spiral stairs you gain more height more quickly thus taking far less space.

Please keep us posted though - I find this interesting and for you, I'm sure its all part of the enjoyment of buying the boat.

 

[jfm]

If you can get the rake of the stairs to suit you then I would go for the steel open design. There is something a bit 'traderish' about the other solution(even though in glass not teak) and it would have to be 'bob on' or you would forever spend your time starring at it if it ain't right, whereas the the steel version kinda mostly looks right except the visual interface between the counter top and the stairs. If there was a way to resolve the 'tension' in that area.

I agree all that. On the tension thing, you are jumping ahead (!) in that I was interested in views on the basic glass vs steel choice. But now that you mention it, that "tension" has been on my mind too. My current thinking is to soften the triangular gap by having a smaller add-on cupboard attached, like the pics below. This would actually be a store for two v big fire extinguishers. I could have the top of this box done in black granite

I think this improves the otherwise awkward triangular gap. Whaddya reckon?

 

[wakeup]

Yep that definitely takes the eye off the break from stair to start of the work surface. I think that looks good.

Just one idea, you might have thought of this already, would it be viable to widen the bottom step to the left by 50mm or so and use that to plant the bottom of the hand rail into rather than planted to the floor or would that bring in a new tension. I was just trying to think of a way to make this interface between the rail base and steps cleaner and more integrated.

 

[jfm]

Just one idea, you might have thought of this already, would it be viable to widen the bottom step to the left by 50mm or so and use that to plant the bottom of the hand rail into rather than planted to the floor or would that bring in a new tension. I was just trying to think of a way to make this interface between the rail base and steps cleaner and more integrated.

Yep, that's already in the works, ie thinking of some detail to avoid just planting the vertical part of the banister tube into the deck. Widening the bottom step by 50mm is one option. Another option is to have the vertical banister tube more aft, by one step, and then it needs to integrate with the second step not the bottom step

 

[benjenbav]

I think the top tread needs to be below the hatch to maximise the opening.

How about a vertical pole on the left rather than the handrail?

 

[jfm]

standard Trend hatch ...

That's a neat trick by Princess to get headroom.

On sq78 they need to use a sliding hatch, as more usually seen on a Targa or V series, because the GRP moulds are set up for it. It slides under the upper dash. See pics below, which are of early Sq74s that had the internal stairs. BTW, I will not be having this flybridge dash mould; I'm having a custom dash made by the very helpful guys at Aquafibre/Brooms in Norfolk (courtesy of an introduction made by a kind poster on this forum) and they will supply it to FL so it will be OEM installed not retrofitted. The legs in the second pic are Alan Harper's, on hull #1

Also, in case of confusion, the orientation of these Sq78 steps is that you are walking aftwards as you ascend. the galley is port side of the boat

 

[jfm]

I think the top tread needs to be below the hatch to maximise the opening.

How about a vertical pole on the left rather than the handrail?

Top tread will be. Those CAD drawings don't show the thickness of the flybr deck. You can deduce it a bit from the pics I just posted above

You mean a vertical post (newel post) and then nothing else, no banister? I dont fancy that! FL confirmed to me yesterday pm that they can make it all in s/s tube, in much thinner diameter than my pictures above, and they can cover the handrail part in black leather so it's less inyerface, visually

 

[wakeup]

JFM don't dismiss the vertical chrome poll idea, think of the extra OB points although a hydraulic poll lifting out of the floor would score more

 

[jfm]

JFM don't dismiss the vertical chrome poll idea, think of the extra OB points although a hydraulic poll lifting out of the floor would score more

Oh no, i haven't dismissed it. There will be a vertical chrome pole floor to ceiling in the saloon and on the aft deck, for all that mullarkey. I just didn't want a vertical pole at the foot of the stairs, as they would bash their ankles on the steps during the swing-around manoeuvres, and it wouldn't make for a great show, really

 

[wakeup]

TWO CHROME POLLS

Will hav to revert to the OB rules book but that is surely an OB winner.

 

[MapisM]

Sorry for the delay in the reply, I had some problems with my onboard GlobeSurfer HSDPA router.
Fantastic piece of hardware btw. That alone creates a wireless web connection accessible to anyone onboard.
But boys, does it have a tricky configuration, particularly when used with encription and other security features...!
Anyway, I digress.

MapisM I specifically said "ignore the detialing and drawer shut lines, and also the wood will be all dark inside the galley not light oak as shown on the inside of the "island" unit"

Whoops....
it seems that we started thinking without finishing to read your previous last paragraph...

I don't have all the dimensions you ask for. The height of the island is standard kitchen, 850mm I think, because the diswasher etc are all standard Miele items. The deck to ceiling height is 2015mm above the "walk thru" gap twixt island unit and the other kitchen units, but in the middle where the stiars go it is higher because the step up at the front of the island is in front of the step up in the ceiling. It's about 2300, and then the step up at the bottom of the stiars is about 200mm. So the stairs have to "span" a vertical distance of about 2100mm I don't have any other dimensions, but you could scale the drawings I suppose. Also i dont have the .dwg files.

Ok, we tried to do what we could based on your numbers plus the renderings.
The bad news is that the renderings are not just rough, they're actually wrong!
For some reason, they assumed the height to be much lower (10 inches or so) than it is.
And that changes the overall proportions, and also affects the possible solutions. The devil is in the details, as often happens.
Btw, also the 2100mm you're quoting isn't correct. I guess you considered 2300mm minus the 200mm of the step up, but starting from the step up, the stair actually has to reach the 2015mm ceiling, not the 2300mm one.
We assumed that the stair has to span a 1900mm overall height (2015 minus 200 plus 85 estimated thickness of the upper deck).
The horizontal span is 1500mm, and it's also estimated. It should be checked against the distance between the projection on the lower deck of the aft hatch opening and the beginning of the 200mm step up.
The most important consequence of these numbers is that 6 steps are not enough. You can make it, but you'll have a 320mm height for each steps, which is neither comfortable nor safe. We would rather use 8 steps (250mm each, still high but acceptable for a boat).

Re. the glass solution, we still think it's the sleeker from a styling viewpoint, but after all if the owner prefers the s/s feeling and pays the bills, who are we to argue...?
What still isn't nice in the s/s solution (IOHO) is the diagonal flow of lines involved with the s/s pillar and the banister. Wakeup is spot on in this respect: we are putting a stair above a galley island, and that's something nobody in his right mind would do, if designing from scratch.
Of course the visual interface doesn't work: it never will, or not as nicely as the space would require, anyway.
It's a mission impossible to design something that won't always meet the eye, in that position and with such surrounding environment. Btw, we agree with Hurricane when he says that a spiral stair is a nice solution in many cases, but not in this one. Here the stair has to be in the middle of a living space, and by making it more irregular we wouldn't make it sleeker. More likely the opposite, in fact.

All that said, if a compromise has to be made (and personally I also would never sacrifice the internal stair for a more elegant galley), we'd rather loose the open look and return to the Sq74 enclosed solution. On the stbd side of the stair, obviously; the port side should remain open.

Anyway, we also gave a try to another "open" alternative, s/s based as per your preference, but with no diagonal structures and minimizing (as we already did with the glass solution) the overall visual impact of the stair.
The result is below. Oh, and we made it without considering the chrome poles comments, honest!
Actually, we didn't even see the latest posts while we were working out this drawing.
Apologies if the drawing is very basic, but we would go nuts to complete a 3D drawing with renderings on a notebook.
It's perfectly scaled to the millimeter, though (I can send you the original file if you wish).

A few comments:

1) for some measures, we made assumptions based on the previous renderings. The hatch is particularly critical. We just raised it to the correct height, together with the ceilings, hoping that its lenght and the relative position above the island were correct.

2) we made the first step lower (150mm), with the other two embedded in the island as high as the other ones (250mm), rather than dividing the 65cm heigth of the island in three 217mm steps, for two reasons: firstly, a different height between the 5 higher steps and the 3 lower ones would be unexpected and hence potentially dangerous. Secondly, this allows anyone working in the galley to reach directly the first step of the stair (even if at 350mm it requires a somewhat athletic cook...), rather than go forward on the step up and make a sort of U turn towards the stair.
For the third step (the one which is level with the island), we think it would be nicer to leave it in granite as the rest of the island.
The last step is directly on the upper deck (shaded in white, whilst the ceiling is shaded in dark grey - the hatch opening is therefore between the two white sections).
The step below the deck is prolonged up to the bulkhead, thus avoiding other poles, creating some space for small cabinets and "breaking" at a lower level the diagonal impact of the stair.

3) The s/s poles have mainly a structural function, to support the steps and make the whole stair stiff enough. Mind, for the longer pole it would be nice - if structurally feasible - to have just one, on the stbd side of the stair. all the other poles are obviously on both sides of the steps.
The longer pole(s) of course works also as handrail(s). It (they) should be sufficient in our opinion, because by the time you are on the second step you can already reach it (them). We fully agree that a vertical pole at the foot of the stair is a no-no. But one from the third step (level with the island) up to the ceiling could be added for additional safety.

4) regarding the clearances, as I said we had to make some guesswork, but unless the hatch position was wrong in the renderings, the third step is already clear under the hatch opening, whilst there are 170cm from the second step to the forward border of the hatch.
This means that it is indeed possible for someone to hit it the hatch corner with the head, but I think that's an acceptable clearance for such passage on a boat.
By the way, by putting the first step further forward, you make things much worse in this respect. I though it could have been necessary, when you said that otherwise the stair was too steep, but based on the actual measures it actually isn't.

Anyhow, the reason why we don't like the solution with central pillar and the extra lenght of the stair is mainly aesthetic, because it emphasizes the visual impact of the diagonal lines, making the stair a protagonist of the scene, instead of hiding it as much as possible.

 

[jfm]

Thank you loads MapisM and your team for all that effort. Funny thing: I have been unhappy about the diagonal for a while, for the reasons you say. The diagonal just doesn't look right, and is not subtle enough, and as Wakeup said it is "awkward" where it passes the worktop. So, last night I made this picture, which is my favourite so far. I think we're thinking along the same lines.

This design allows the island to be longer becuase it tucks under the stairs. So I have reinstated the second galley entrance. The stiars will be stiff enough becuase there will be say 8mm ss plate welded to the tubes under the oak steps (set in flush, by routing the oak). Of course the lighting can be included

I really want the banister for practical reasons and I think it looks ok in black leather covered 30mm thick wall s/s tube

Ignore the s/s handles on the ceiling; i just haven't wiped them off on this image

 

[petem]

I think you're going in the right direction JFM. I can't decide if you need to fill the space under the second step or leave i open. I didn't like your reduced size cabinet in an earlier rendering. How about some kind of custom open wine rack or closed wine cooler?

Pete

 

[benjenbav]

Really like that last one jfm.

What I meant by a vertical was much more like MapisM drew. But I think your new rail, especially coupled with the vertical s/s risers - which are a nice touch - will make an effective fusion of elegant and safe.

I do think that if there isn't anything on at least one side of the stairs it will look great - except to anyone using them, to whom it will look as safe as the North face of the Eiger. Even a partially open staircase is surprisingly daunting to many peeps. We have one in the office and one of my partners brought his black lab in the other day, which wouldn't go up it - had to take the lift - although he didn't mind going down it because he couldn't see through the steps that way.

 

[MapisM]

Did I say that the devil is in the detail...?

I think we're thinking along the same lines.

LOL, yeah, great minds etc., I suppose.

I'm afraid you played with the wrong measures shown by the renderings, though.
It's now very easy for us to cross check the feasibility of each solutions with the cad program, having created the general layout (albeit with some assumptions, as previously explained).
And below is how your latest solution would actually appear.
There are a few practical (but hard to solve) problems:
1) each step is 320mm high - quite a lot.
2) the third step is actually much higher above the island top than in your drawing. Hence not as nicely integrated, though arguably better from a functional standpoint because it gives a much better usability of the top itself.
3) what really doesn't stack up is the clearance - see drawing below. You'd better have helmets as standard safety equipment if you go that route!

 

[MapisM]

Sorry, we just realised that we didn't consider the shift forward of the first step which was in your drawing. Below is the amended version.
As previously mentioned, this solution actually makes the clearance problem even worse: also the third step is not anymore below the hatch opening, and look at the sort of clearance it has! The clearance of the second step remains the same as before, of course.
Otoh, of course the island can be bigger, but overall we still think the way to go is hiding as much as possible of the stair, hence making:
1) the first step of the stair starting aft of the floor step up (also to reduce the clearance problem);
2) the front fascia of the island longer, reaching the step up.
3) 8 steps instead of 6, the last one being directly on the upper deck.

All of that should be feasible with both the s/s and the glass solutions, and regardless of whether you prefer to have the banister or a few vertical poles.
I'm just wondering if FL didn't yet regret customizing the boat for you...

We're a bit rushing at the mo, 'cause we're on our way back home tonight (sic!). I'll re-check the thread asap, anyway.

 

[wakeup]

JFM, That looks loads better.

Just picking up on Mapism comments re the clearance height and given that these are for galley access only, would it be possible to turn the last two steps back towards the galley a bit like a kite turn in a domestic set of stairs as that might aid with the head clearance as it is probably easier to cock one's head sideways when descending rather than backward limbo. I guess you would need to add an additional step but that might help with bringing down the average riser dimension that Mapism is highlighting. It would also be clear that these stairs are galley stairs only praps not for charter guests and big fat Welshman.

 

[jfm]

Thanks all for comments. MapisM, I don't think it makes sense for the top step to be level with the deck. That's just a waste, and increases the head bashing problem on step 3. From exp with the Sq58 stairs, imho the top step needs to be a full riser height lower than the flybr deck. The flybr deck is thicker than your estimated 85mm; it's more like 125mm from face of inside ceiling to top of teak on flybr. If you take the 2015mm ceiling height minus the 200mm "free" step at the bottom, you therefore (using my approach for the top step) have to span 1940mm with 7 risers (6 stairs, but 7 risers). That's 280mm per riser, which is fine on a boat, with a full banister, (for anyone doing a quick check, a sheet of A4 paper long side is 297mm. A house staircase riser would be typically 250mm).

As regards head bashing at the front edge of the hatch, and limbo-ing/stooping to avoid it, I think now that I've been given a nice banister solution by Fairline I'll ask them to make the staircase steeper, by moving the bottom step aft, closer to the island. On a boat, with a banister, steeper stairs than 45deg will be fine imho. This will reduce (if not totally eliminate) the head bashing - I don't mind a slight stoop/limbo to avoid the head bash

I've just had lunch with Jimmy the Builder and EME and their delightful other halves and we looked at print outs of the sketches. Jimmy would prefer the front (actually it's starboard) fascia board of the island to be projected forward to screen off the bottom couple of steps. The steps would still be floating and independent of the island, but the triangle gap would be screened off by the fascia. I think you can argue this one either way but I'm inclined to leave the gap open; I think it looks ok. Remember, it is smaller than before because the elimination of the diagonal pole means the island unit can be made longer to tuck under the 3rd step. Also at night with the lighting under the front edge of each step it will look better imho without the screen/fascia

Wakeup, I'll think about the kite turn steps some more. My initial thought is that the headbash issue occurs on step 2 (counting from bottom) and kite stairs won't materially alter the position of step 2. As you say, there is also the need for an extra step. I think it is trying to squeeze too much into the space available. The banister would need to start straight then become helical at the bottom, but that's ok. I think it might be better to fix the head-bash by just making the steps steeper

Petem, thanks for the wine rack idea. A (say) 3x8 bottles oak wine rack might just be the perfect thing to fill the triangle space at the end of the island unit. Or one of those smallish glass doored wine coolers built into an oak cabinet. Eureka moment! There is a 60cm appliance space aft for a full wine cooler or fridge, in the crew area, and I have to choose which, so could put a fridge there and wine cooler under the stairs. Thanks!

Thanks all for the ideas

BTW, returning to the original subject of this thread, you'll be pleased to hear I presented Jimmy with the 4 Fairline deck eyes, so the original purpose of this thread (before the hijack!) has been fulfilled

 

[petem]

Petem, thanks for the wine rack idea. A (say) 3x8 bottles oak wine rack might just be the perfect thing to fill the triangle space at the end of the island unit. Or one of those smallish glass doored wine coolers built into an oak cabinet. Eureka moment! There is a 60cm appliance space aft for a full wine cooler or fridge, in the crew area, and I have to choose which, so could put a fridge there and wine cooler under the stairs. Thanks!

Something like this built into Oak cabinet? ...

Pete