Where can I get one of these?

[wakeup]

OB Guide

That's all in the spec Wakeup. Well, not the mixing cosole cos er I don't know what one is, but all the rest. Am I up to 30 OB yet or will you have to inspect in person?

JFM a 30 OB rosette can only be awarded after several inspections to ensure consistency of OB facilities.

I know it is difficult JFM but all other 10 and 20 rosetteers get stuck at those levels because of lack of consistency and never make into the big league;-)

The OB committee is of course highly secretive, of dubious credentials and open to brown envelopes. The assessment and the publication of the guide is a closely guarded yet easily influenced process.

The OB committee works tirelessly to ensure consistent levels of OB rating credentials are maintained.

We are currently compiling the 2010/11 guide. Any other boaters wishing to be considered can enter submission now. Applications for an OB rating of under 20 OB will be considered in writing with out the need for visits. Above 20 then there is the initial compulsory visit followed by a number of random visits. The boat must be adorned with the number of OBs stated in the application to qualify.

30 plus OB applications will only be considered if the boat is presented with crew, fuel and sandwiches in on of the Mediterranean ports between St Tropez through Portofino. I cannot stress highly enough that your chances will greatly improve if the boat is presented at a port between La Rague to Antibes

The OB Guide is looking for a headline sponsor and we are willing to consider offers from any marine based organisation. Please contact me for details.

 

[strakeryrius]

FWIW – I wonder if you have enough hand rails – remember these stairs will be used whilst under way.

I agree with Mike. I think that you will end up adding a vertical grab rail to the bulkhead to the right of the oven for crew to steady themselves before they start ascending the stairs when they have trays/food to carry up, and before they can reach up to the overhead grab rails. Females of average height or less will struggle with the stairs otherwise.

 

[Hurricane]

Having thought about it, jfm.

Why not spiral the stairs - the same way that most are done.
You could then introduce a hand rail - as in the case of most others.
And then partially enclosing each step so that "bits" dont fall onto the work surface.

I'm probably just old fasioned but often things that are done elsewhere can mean that its the best way of doing it.

There might even be more space forward of the stairs - by stepping off from the main thouroughfare you wouldnt be wasting space forward of the stairs.

Whatever you do, I'm sure it will look great.

 

[jfm]

I agree with Mike. I think that you will end up adding a vertical grab rail to the bulkhead to the right of the oven for crew to steady themselves before they start ascending the stairs when they have trays/food to carry up, and before they can reach up to the overhead grab rails. Females of average height or less will struggle with the stairs otherwise.

Straker, thanks. The oven would be too far away (see pic below, though mine is not being built with that wood/colour scheme, nor will it have toe-stubbing fire extinguishers!), but I take your point on handrail. We are designing in a s/s banister, and will fit it if necessary, having tried it without first

Hurric, thanks for the spiral suggestion. That could make sense,. It wouldn't be a full 360deg, more like a 1/4 turn, just as Princess do it. I'll sketch that one out and draw to scale. The island unit would then be in front of the stairs

 

[strakeryrius]

Looking at the sketch it appears to be a lot closer than the photo shows it to be. A trick of the isometric view I think. My concern was from an ergonomic viewpoint - it would not be possible for someone standing at the foot of the stairs carrying anything like a tray to reach up and take a firm hold on the overhead grabrails, as they are positioned over the head of the stairs. They would have to be way taller than average to reach up, and most females wouldn't have a hope in hell.

A banister isn't the ideal solution with the open styling that you are going for - maybe you could integrate hand holds into one or more of the treads of the lower stairs to avoid having to have this?

Its an interesting conundrum - how to make it safe while still maintaining the right "look" that you are going for. I'll look forward to seeing pics of the finished boat.

 

[MapisM]

Italian car?

Thanks for the offer! Might blast to Italy in my Italian car after Corsica

Yup, the top hatch is just non moveable, without major re-work of GRP. On the original Sq74, early builds, they put a fore-aft "bulkhead" each side of the stairs so they were hidden, but it made the galley very closed in. I want a very open look, hence the above sketch.

AndieMac, for head bashing the steps will have bullnosed full radii. They are being modelled on the bottom 2 steps of the Sq58 internal stairs

Aesthetics wise, there is no question the boat looks better with no stairs and just a big open plan galley. But I need the stairs for practical reasons, hence I gotta compromise on the looks. And as said above I cannot move the top hatch. So the question becomes, how to do it, given those constraints?

Now you're making me curious, is your Italian car a red one, or what?

Anyway, as it happens I have a couple of friends onboard at the moment, and they're both architects.
So, we gave your galley a few thoughts while having breakfast at anchor this morning.
Our consensus is that given the top hatch restriction, the Sq74 solution which you mention, with an enclosed straight stair, is the most logical from a functional viewpoint. But we also see your point about the open look.
So, we tried to play with Autocad a little bit, though that's rather tricky on a notebook, hence the poor output below.
The steps are supposed to be made of the same wood as the rest of the galley, and the two blue outlines are stratified tempered glasses. Pretty thick ones, 20mm or so. I have the whole floor of a mezzanine in my lake home built with such glasses, they can take whatever you will throw at them. The light blue one is higher, and works also as a hand rail.
On the other side of the stair, the dark blue glass serves just as a support for the steps, which should be laterally bolted to the glasses on both sides - getting rid of the central pillar.
Dark and light colours don't mean anything, they're just meant to make the drawing clearer. The real glasses should be perfectly clear.
Of course, also the "dark blue" glass could be exactly the same as the other one - i.e. higher. From a functional/safety viewpoint, it would actually be better, but the "slim" version is probably nicer, and allows to leave the first two steps open on port side, hence making access from the galley even easier. Also, we think that the asymmetrical arrangement is nicer.
Another glass could be put under the steps, to enclose the stair and avoid the risk of stuff dropped in the food, as Hurric pointed out. But 'fiuaskme, I'd rather leave it open.
Oh, and the awful ceiling handholds are removed. Hey, we're talking of a boat aiming at top OB ratings for chrissake, not of a trawler, a sailboat, or summink...!
For the same reason, some sort of LED lighting embedded in the glasses is almost mandatory, though I'm sure you don't need any suggestion on that.

 

[jfm]

MapisM, that is beautiful! Huge thanks to you and your guests for thinking about it and making that sketch. I have sent it to Fairline and we are discussing it

I love the basic design. When i first suggested the stairs to FL I thought about making them in glass but abandoned the idea as too complex. But your design is simpler, and probably do-able in the time available.

Some details: the galley work tops are granite so for the 3rd step we would insert some wood into the granite to form a tep; I agree to keep the far side (the port side) as low and have a banister on the starboard side only; I would edge light the glass in high power white LED which is a technique wakeup knows well and has advised me on. The edge light source would be at the bottom, and the top edge of the banister would glow white - would look very cool, and very practical; I like the "trick" of hiding the side of the stairs by continuing the "front fascia" of the island unit

You Italians know a thing or two about design! Thanks

More later.

The car is a Fiat Panda btw; gotta make some economies somewhere

Finally a few more pics. The first pic shows the colour scheme I will have. Dark wenge wood inside the galley, oak outside, wenge floor. The second pic shows the overall galley layout - where they have a curved black sofa in this pic I will have more galley cupboards and granite work top so my gally will be quite large and these stairs will be in the middle of the galley zone, fore-aft wise. The third pic shows another wider view of where the stairs will be - not my colours and I wont have the same dining table/chairs as in this pic, and I will have more galley where the bar stools are at the far end of this pic

 

[MapisM]

The car is a Fiat Panda btw; gotta make some economies somewhere

Yeah, right! Admit it, you needed a reliable car for those days when the M5 goes in limp mode and becomes as fast as a Segway...
Anyway, a Panda is actually just perfect for driving along the narrow lake roads: we mostly use swmbo's Smart around there.
I just re-checked my agenda, we will surely be there in wks 33 and 34.
You're more than welcome to join us, if you can find some time within such timeframe.

Oh, and back to the galley: we're glad that you appreciated our thoughts.
I hope you'll be able to arrange it, because the final result could be really nice.
And bound to raise some eyebrows at the boat shows! Something FL is surely sensible about.
We were also thinking about the best way to securely fasten the glasses, both on the island unit and on the ceiling. That's probably the most critical part of this design, but I told my guests to not worry about it, because if you and FL don't find a solution for that, I don't know who else could.

On a side note, I had to explain them also the essential boating concept of OB rating.
According to the lady architect, such galley alone is bound to improve the ranking.
She went even further, suggesting to fit a diagonal glass below the steps (the one I previously told that I'd rather avoid), sealed to the side glasses, but leaving some space (1" or so) between it and the steps. This would allow you to make a waterfall below the steps, just adding a small recirculating pump. Edge lighting would be great also for the waterfall, of course.
Blimey, I can't believe I'm suggesting such thing on a boat.
...And she told me that my boat was lovely, the cheat!

 

[jfm]

Yeah, right! Admit it, you needed a reliable car for those days when the M5 goes in limp mode and becomes as fast as a Segway...
Anyway, a Panda is actually just perfect for driving along the narrow lake roads: we mostly use swmbo's Smart around there.
I just re-checked my agenda, we will surely be there in wks 33 and 34.
You're more than welcome to join us, if you can find some time within such timeframe.

Oh, and back to the galley: we're glad that you appreciated our thoughts.
I hope you'll be able to arrange it, because the final result could be really nice.
And bound to raise some eyebrows at the boat shows! Something FL is surely sensible about.
We were also thinking about the best way to securely fasten the glasses, both on the island unit and on the ceiling. That's probably the most critical part of this design, but I told my guests to not worry about it, because if you and FL don't find a solution for that, I don't know who else could.

On a side note, I had to explain them also the essential boating concept of OB rating.
According to the lady architect, such galley alone is bound to improve the ranking.
She went even further, suggesting to fit a diagonal glass below the steps (the one I previously told that I'd rather avoid), sealed to the side glasses, but leaving some space (1" or so) between it and the steps. This would allow you to make a waterfall below the steps, just adding a small recirculating pump. Edge lighting would be great also for the waterfall, of course.
Blimey, I can't believe I'm suggesting such thing on a boat.
...And she told me that my boat was lovely, the cheat!

Well actually the panda has been in limp mode for a week (fuel injection problem) so I traded it in yesterday for a nearly-new Clio diesel. The Renault dealer is 200m from Port Vauban - so convenient. But I no longer own an Italian car (I even traded my son's Punto Abarth for a Mini Cooper, 2 weeks ago) so I should hang my head in shame!

Back to the galley. Fairline have done renderings of your/your friends' "glass" design. Very nice (though I'll keave ther waterfall idea for now; that an be a 2013 upgrade ). Pictures below, together with pics of the "steel" design. Fairline are perfectly happy to make the glass design (the level of customisation offered is astonishing; San Lorenzo eat your heart out, let alone Sunseeker/Princess/Ferretti) so I have a free choice

I've thought about it hard and will choose the steel I think. Reasons:
1. With the glass, there is no choice about top and bottom locations and I think the stairs are too steep. See pic3. With the steel design some extra length is available at the bottom; I mean the bottom step can be further forward (see pictures) which makes the stairs less steep. (Strictly, the bottom step in the glass design could be moved forward, but then it would stick out and spoils the look. (It is not feasible to extend the whole of the cabinet forwards with the glass design; only the bottom step could be extended forward)
2. I kinda feel the glass design belongs in a house not a boat. I actually quite like the boaty feel of the steel construction
3. The steel design makes for a better handhold; holding just the edge of a sheet of glass isn't perfect at sea. I'm thinking of having the steel banister shown in the pics below, with the vertical part in polished s/steel and the angled part covered in black leather (there are many other handholds throughout the boat also covered in black leather with nice stitching; again FL are very happy to custom make all this)
4. It's a small point but I can integrate better lighting with the steel design. White flush LED under each step, with all wires hidden

I have a meeting at FL next Tuesday and need to decide by then, so if you think I'm making a bad choice please say! Pictures below, but ignore the detialing and drawer shut lines, and also the wood will be all dark inside the galley not light oak as shown on the inside of the "island" unit. Also the galley extends forward beyond what is shown in these pictures: the area to the far right of the 5th picture, under the port-side windscreen, is all galley space with cupboards and granite work surfaces

What does anyone think? Thanks for all the suggestions - I dont want to get this badly wrong

Pic1

Pic2

Pic3

Pic4

Pic5

Pic6

Pic7

 

[PaulGooch]

Initially, i liked the sketch with the glass panels. Having now seen the FL drawings, i like the steel design more. I like the look of the steps themselves, but the handrail looks wrong and clumsy. Looks a bit angular where the vertical section joins the rail, not sure if a bend would look better here, not sure. I think the leather look a bit clumsy too and definitely out of place. I think it would look better with a nice wooden capping on the handrail, to match the wooden steps.

EDIT. having now seen Hurricanes handrails below, the leather doesn't look as "clumsy" as it did in the FL pics. The rail also looks more in proportion, the FL one looks a bit on the big side.

 

[Hurricane]

If you would like my opinion, I agree with you.
I think the glass looks good but your last two images look the most practical.
Still a problem dropping bits onto the surface - maybe a small lip around each step could minimise this.
I hadnt realised that the dining table is opposite so I think dropping bits onto the surface would be a real problem.

But I think the addition of the banister/handhold makes for a much more practical design.

(there are many other handholds throughout the boat also covered in black leather with nice stitching; again FL are very happy to custom make all this

I know the kind of thing you are talking about - we have several on our Princess and they feel/look good as well as being strong.

Like this one

And this is a Princess internal staircase - actually, thinking about it, we dont drop much through the stairs when we use them so my comments might not be so crucial.

 

[wakeup]

Hi JFM,

Just my 2c, with the steel open design (which is shallower in rise than the glass steps design) do you have enough head height clearance when on steps 2 & 3? It wouldn't be great if you had to duck forwards and limbo backwards going up and down the stairs where as the stepped version is steep this I guess wouldn't be an issue. It is difficult to get a feeling for scale, it just looks like a six footer would have to duck and lean forward on ascent and limbo back on the way down the steel open stairs due to position of the stair case opening in the ceiling.

The asymmetric glass design could result in the near shoulder/arm bashing on the tall side in use day today.

Wakeup

 

[Hurricane]

I hope you wont be offended by this but I thought you might find it amusing.

I dont know any naval architects but I was having a cuppa tea with my builder who is doing some maintenance on the house at the moment.

Just mentioned your stairs in the conversation and he said "what about a B&Q loft ladder"!!! - not seriously - I hasten to add.

Interesting what pops into different people's minds though.

 

[MapisM]

Urgh, that is fugly!
I wouldn't want this alternative for the drawers design alone.
...makes me wonder if they screwed up this design for fear of receiving an invoice or some royalties request from us!
If so, you can confirm them that it's all FOC.
Anyway, below is one quick example of how the island drawers could be better arranged. The space on the left below the first steps could still be used, but we would rather use a "push to open" lock, instead of a handle.

Now, back to business - following your numbering:
1) understood. That wasn't evident in your first draft, from which we started. There are a couple of possibilities we're thinking about, to make it feasible also with the extra length without spoliling the look too much. But in order to make a feasible proposal, we would need some more measures (height of the island, size and relative position of the hatch, height from the floor to the bottom of the flybridge). Or better yet, the DWG files. Glad to help if you wish, we must kill the time between dives, sunbaths and fine wine, you know...
If you're still interested in this alternative, obviously. In fact, we can't argue about your point 2), that's strictly a matter of personal preference.
3) we did think of that from the beginning. We left the glass alone in order to give the whole stair a more "aerial" feeling, with no heavy lines going from the island to the ceiling. But obviously it's no big deal to put a s/s tube covered with leather also along the glass edge. Though I wouldn't, in this solution, also because in practice 90% of the times you would use the stair without even touching the banister, on such small ship with top-notch stabs!
4) good point, we didn't think of it. It should be possible to embed some invisible (or almost) wires in the glasses.

Anyway, I'm sure she'll be gorgeous regardless of the stair you'll finally decide to build!

 

[BartW]

we must kill the time between dives, sunbaths and fine wine, you know...

still diving ? still on in the tonnara ?
no danger for adiction ?

sorry J & J for the thread drift

 

[jfm]

MapisM I specifically said "ignore the detialing and drawer shut lines, and also the wood will be all dark inside the galley not light oak as shown on the inside of the "island" unit" . These were just rough sketches from Fairline!

I don't have all the dimensions you ask for. The height of the island is standard kitchen, 850mm I think, because the diswasher etc are all standard Miele items. The deck to ceiling height is 2015mm above the "walk thru" gap twixt island unit and the other kitchen units, but in the middle where the stiars go it is higher because the step up at the front of the island is in front of the step up in the ceiling. It's about 2300, and then the step up at the bottom of the stiars is about 200mm. So the stairs have to "span" a vertical distance of about 2100mm I don't have any other dimensions, but you could scale the drawings I suppose. Also i dont have the .dwg files. I like the idea oe embedding the wires in the glass: that would be possible becuase we are talking say 0.1amp LED lighting

 

[jfm]

Paul, you're right but in fact the banister is just a quick add-on by me to some banister-less pictures sent to me by FL. I did it in good ole microsoft paint . So the banister picture is just a general concept; dont rely on the detailing in the above pics.

It would be slightly slimmer than my drawng, and the angle would be done by bending the tube. The black leather covering would look ok I think as there is much other black leather (with nice contrasting stitching) all around the boat. As an alternative I could also have a smartie tube of oak made in a lathe and slid on over the tube, then matt varnished.

But as I say, ignore the fine detailing in my pic becuase it is just a MS paint job! Thanks for the comments!

 

[jfm]

Hi JFM,

Just my 2c, with the steel open design (which is shallower in rise than the glass steps design) do you have enough head height clearance when on steps 2 & 3? It wouldn't be great if you had to duck forwards and limbo backwards going up and down the stairs where as the stepped version is steep this I guess wouldn't be an issue. It is difficult to get a feeling for scale, it just looks like a six footer would have to duck and lean forward on ascent and limbo back on the way down the steel open stairs due to position of the stair case opening in the ceiling.

The asymmetric glass design could result in the near shoulder/arm bashing on the tall side in use day today.

Wakeup

You're absolutely right Wakeup and this is another aspect. There is a trade off between steepness of stairs and hitting head. We haven't fully decided, but I'm considering having the stairs less steep and deliberately making them so you have to stoop (or limbo, on the way down) slightly to avoid the head bash on the forward edge of the ceiling hatch. I reckon i will get used to it as will the regular crew, and I'm designing here for me not the general public

But this is infinitely variable, and we might tuck the bottom of the s/s pole slightly backwards compared with the above pics, to make the stairs a bit steeper and the limbo/stoop slightly less

The other aspect to this trade off is that if you make the stairs steeper, and reduce the headbashing, you also make the island unit shorter. There is loads of compromise and trade off in the detailed design of a boat!

What's your view/vote on overall looks of the steel vs glass?

 

[jfm]

I hope you wont be offended by this but I thought you might find it amusing.

I dont know any naval architects but I was having a cuppa tea with my builder who is doing some maintenance on the house at the moment.

Just mentioned your stairs in the conversation and he said "what about a B&Q loft ladder"!!! - not seriously - I hasten to add.

Interesting what pops into different people's minds though.

Tee hee . However, the internal stiarcase is one of many customisations that are completely free of charge (or fully included in the price). As I'm not paying, I might as well have an architectural creation rather than a B+Q ladder

 

[jfm]

I know the kind of thing you are talking about - we have several on our Princess and they feel/look good as well as being strong.

Like this one

Thanks Hurric for the pics. Tell me please, in the pic above, is the banister quite firm, not wobbly or springy? I expect they have made it from thick-walled tubing so it's nice an stiff. How would you rate it? If it is quite firm on your boat, that gives me the confidence to use much smaller diameter tubing for my banister, which would improve the look by making it look "lighter". My clumsy pics above show something like 60mm dia tube, but it would look loads better if it was 30mm dia.

I think the partly spiral stiarcase works perfectly the way Princess do it but I dont think it would add anything to my design, because I would then need an extra stair to make up for the loss of the "free" stair that is gained by taking the staircase striaght down to the step-up in the floor (that creates the headroom for the cabins below)

I'm not worried about the dropping bits thing. Once everyone is aboard and the decks are perfectly clean, there is no dirt for people to pick up on their feet. Everyone removes shoes before stepping onto the passerelle and it is a totally no-shoes boat like Med boats generally. We dont get any accumulation of dirt under the flybridge stairs on the Sq58