As it happens AIS has given me the confidence to do more eyeball assessments as I am now able to make better distance assessments. The AIS laptop has been switched on much less in the past two seasons.
When you see a ship, never mind the IRPCS, just get out of the way
- Thread starter Danny Jo
- Start date
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
There seem to be too many people who use 'the exception proves the rule' when justifying their position on this topic.
The basis of IRPCS is that all vessels will do their best to avoid close quarters situations and - the clue is in the title '...prevent collision at sea."
To me this implies a good dose of common sense. Despite being a strong advocate of 'apply the IRPCS' in these forums, I would never suggest that the rules suggest that we stand on blindly. Its why the ditty about what's his name being dead is so annoying. After all, he didn't apply the IRPCS either!
In open waters, the rules suggest which vessel should be stand on and which should give way, but they also emphasise the duty of all to avoid close quarters situations. That is why, 'stand on and monitor the situation' when it is your obligation to do so should be applied. Monitoring the situation should give you time to see if the other vessel is taking avoiding action or not. Its interesting that AIS seems to have given more people confidence about how large vessels regularly change course to avoid sailing vessels.
I also utterly fail to see why various people immediately get on their soap boxes about how it madness for small craft to impede vessels in confined waters. I am tempted to ask which version of the IRPCS these people are reading and studying. The Rules are explicit in the duties of small craft to not impede large vessels in restricted waters.
As I continue to maintain, sensible application of the IRPCS is the way to avoid anarchy on the high seas. This means standing on when required, but always being prepared to avoid collision if a close quarters situation starts to develop.
The basis of IRPCS is that all vessels will do their best to avoid close quarters situations and - the clue is in the title '...prevent collision at sea."
To me this implies a good dose of common sense. Despite being a strong advocate of 'apply the IRPCS' in these forums, I would never suggest that the rules suggest that we stand on blindly. Its why the ditty about what's his name being dead is so annoying. After all, he didn't apply the IRPCS either!
In open waters, the rules suggest which vessel should be stand on and which should give way, but they also emphasise the duty of all to avoid close quarters situations. That is why, 'stand on and monitor the situation' when it is your obligation to do so should be applied. Monitoring the situation should give you time to see if the other vessel is taking avoiding action or not. Its interesting that AIS seems to have given more people confidence about how large vessels regularly change course to avoid sailing vessels.
I also utterly fail to see why various people immediately get on their soap boxes about how it madness for small craft to impede vessels in confined waters. I am tempted to ask which version of the IRPCS these people are reading and studying. The Rules are explicit in the duties of small craft to not impede large vessels in restricted waters.
As I continue to maintain, sensible application of the IRPCS is the way to avoid anarchy on the high seas. This means standing on when required, but always being prepared to avoid collision if a close quarters situation starts to develop.
Last edited:
Robin
Well-Known Member
At last the voice of true reason!
I voted 'disagree strongly' because it was the nearest option to what I believe, note the nearest not the only option.
I get a little bemused by those who start worrying about a close encounter of the AIS or MARPA kind when the time of this is 20 -30 minutes away. The important thing about monitoring potential collision tracts is the relative bearing when in simple terms constant is bad news. However at longer ranges, and especially if the two vessels tracks are converging and not simple ones crossing at 90 degs, the bearing will NOT show much change until the vessels are closer, by close I mean say 2 or 3 mls or less. This applies whether the bearing of the other vessel is visual, radar (with or without MARPA) or AIS simply because at long ranges the difference in the bearings will be too small to detect on a small boat swinging around as we do on the waves.
Altering course like headless chickens DAKA style (whatever happened to DAKA BTW??) as soon as a big ship is seen is confusing to all, not least to the ship and on occasions someone in a small boat near us doing just that has caused ships to alter course and put us and others in the danger zone whilst he (or another ship) tries to avoid the unpredictable headless clucker.
Hands up who finds fishing boats difficult to predict and avoid as they follow the fish and make multiple turns? Well that is EXACTLY what you will get all the small vessels doing if anarchy rules rather than commonsense and IRPCS!
Over the years we have made many trips in areas of shipping when the visibility has dropped to near zero, but we have radar (not MARPA) and have had lots of practice using it. Big ships in general don't cause too many problems in these circumstances because they are not only good radar targets but more importantly they are predictable because they basically follow straight line courses and they apply IRPCS. I remember by contrast one trip south of Guernsey when the fog rolled in that was really worrying though, why? Because we were in the midst of lots of small boats many or most of which had no radar and were totally unpredictable as many of them did the headless chicken routine.
It is interesting to see also in other replies in what context people put the question. Some imagine being in the Solent, some even more confined as in the approaches to Cowes or Southampton. In my case I cast my vote in the context of situations occuring out at sea proper, in the traffic 'lanes' between TSSs in the Channel for example.
aquaplane
Well-Known Member
I try to ensure that COLREGS don't apply, though I have been assured that they don't where I sail, but only by anal retentives.
Got to agree with Searush, be safe and stay cool.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
May I enquire how do you think that you do this? Furthermore where do you sail where you believe that IRPCS don't apply?
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I find this post slightly worrying. It seems to imply that at a range of four miles that there is a choice in which way to turn. If you apply the IRPCS it is usually obvious which way to turn, and turning the wrong way can put you in more danger than not turning at all. For example if you are in a crossing situation and are the stand on vessel, a turn to port to pass behind the other vessel might coincide with the other vessels (correct) turn to starboard. Suddenly the situation is worse as both of you are once more potentially on a collision course and are approaching each other more rapidly.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Crossing baltic west to east ... Container ship running down from north ... clear open waters ... I kept good eye on him and he wasn't altering ... so before it got to serious OH Sh$$ situation - I did an about 360 and let him pass ahead ...
Once I cleared up the sheets and mess about the cabin and cockpit... I called him up and asked him if he'd seen us ... He calmly said yes and had been tracking us for some time. He reckoned original CPA was 2 cables ... He was suprised by my 360 about turn but understood what I was doing. I politely advised him that HE could determine 2 cable CPA, but I cannot on a small sailboat moving about in a seaway .. it's hard enough to take bearings to determine close 1/4's situation let alone calculate a CPA ... to me 2 cables looked more like a collision. He apologised and reckoned he would take that more into account next time seeing a sailboat.
Let's hope so !!
As to AIS ... If AIS had told me 2 cables CPA - I still would have 360'd ... it's FAR too close IMHO. As Marine College lecturers plugged into us cadets - why occupy same bit of water when you have all the oceans to play in ?
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Here we go - hair splitting ...
I was talking in terms of the subject of this thread. Of course various OTHER sections of IRPCS apply at ALL times ...
Sorry - I thought we were all talking same sections / subject
Robin
Well-Known Member
If his bio is up to date he sails a Centaur on Lake Windermere and I don't suppose meets many supertankers?
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
If his bio is up to date he sails a Centaur on Lake Windermere and I don't suppose meets many supertankers?
Gotcha, John !!fireball
Well-Known Member
I must say I am amazed at how many startled rabbits we have on these fora ... I went for the I disagree partly but ... option ...
I understand that some ships do not take avoiding action for small vessels in open water. I put this down to 1 or more of
a) they haven't seen me
b) they can see more around me and have nowhere else to go
c) they can't be arsed to make a change
d) they consider the gap to be big enough
In these situations I will (obviously) change course and/or speed
However, I will not run away at first sighting as I cannot mind read and have no idea what the ships crew is intending to do about me (if they've seen me). It could be they are accelarating/decelarating and/or altering course so I need to stand on for a time to assess the situation.
With AIS I do get advanced warning of the oncoming traffic, but unless it is flat calm the CPA will vary wildly so you still need to stand on until you can clearly judge the situation.
Open water - I would consider close quarters to be around 1nm.
Oh - JM
If CPA says 0.2m and you're 4 miles off target with other ships bearing down on your current location you need to know whether to open up the engine to get some speed to open up the CPA or slow down or turn .... so a bCPA would be helpful although it is NOT the whole picture!
I understand that some ships do not take avoiding action for small vessels in open water. I put this down to 1 or more of
a) they haven't seen me
b) they can see more around me and have nowhere else to go
c) they can't be arsed to make a change
d) they consider the gap to be big enough
In these situations I will (obviously) change course and/or speed
However, I will not run away at first sighting as I cannot mind read and have no idea what the ships crew is intending to do about me (if they've seen me). It could be they are accelarating/decelarating and/or altering course so I need to stand on for a time to assess the situation.
With AIS I do get advanced warning of the oncoming traffic, but unless it is flat calm the CPA will vary wildly so you still need to stand on until you can clearly judge the situation.
Open water - I would consider close quarters to be around 1nm.
Oh - JM
If CPA says 0.2m and you're 4 miles off target with other ships bearing down on your current location you need to know whether to open up the engine to get some speed to open up the CPA or slow down or turn .... so a bCPA would be helpful although it is NOT the whole picture!
fireball
Well-Known Member
Oh - forgot to mention - one 'close quarters' this year.
Trip over to Cherbourg ... sailing from Chi Harbour on a broad reach (port tack - not that it matters) ... one ferry passes ahead of us in the eastern approaches to the solent ... check out towards the Nab and there is another large ferry on its way in ... and turning to port ....
We had the deck bicolour and stern light on - so probably not overly visable in the darkness/light polution from portsmouth.
Easy answer - fire up the engine and get a move on ... turning on the steaming light as we did so ... which lit up the genoa nicely! ferry abruptly stopped its turn and went in behind us ...
It's all about being seen and understanding what the other party is likely to do ... which is written down in the colregs ... so follow them....
oh and nowhere do the colregs say to stand on regardless ...
Trip over to Cherbourg ... sailing from Chi Harbour on a broad reach (port tack - not that it matters) ... one ferry passes ahead of us in the eastern approaches to the solent ... check out towards the Nab and there is another large ferry on its way in ... and turning to port ....
We had the deck bicolour and stern light on - so probably not overly visable in the darkness/light polution from portsmouth.
Easy answer - fire up the engine and get a move on ... turning on the steaming light as we did so ... which lit up the genoa nicely! ferry abruptly stopped its turn and went in behind us ...
It's all about being seen and understanding what the other party is likely to do ... which is written down in the colregs ... so follow them....
oh and nowhere do the colregs say to stand on regardless ...
awol
Well-Known Member
But if you had applied the IRPCS - specifically Rule 19 (d)
you wouldn't have turned to port at all - I can't see a codicil about 19d not applying when there is soup in the cockpit.
Now you can argue that "radar" doesn't mean AIS, despite what those nice gents at NASA may say, but when the rules were writ AIS wasn't even in mind. Radio , direction and range certainly apply to both.
So I reckon that you determined the risk of a close-quarters situation developing, took avoiding action in plenty time, but because of your soup, chose to ignore (i).
So what would you do in the following situation?
You are sailing north mid channel at 4 knots through the non TSS west bound shipping lane cutting through the lane about 10 to 20 degrees off a right angle because you want to end up at the Needles and not Poole or Weymouth. You have max daylight visibility range. Sea state moderate.
After a quiet period 4 AIS targets appear. Bearing at CPA indicates the first 3 ships will pass either side 10 to 20 minutes from now at ranges of less than 0.7nm. A 4th more distance ship is travelling 10 kts faster than the first 3 ships and time to CPA is 30 minutes.
Over the next 20 minutes the CPA of the 4th ship bounces around between 0.2nm and 0.1nm and the bearing@CPA indicates you will pass just ahead. By the time the first 3 ships have passed things are getting tight and you doubt the 4th ship has picked you up over the past 20 minutes because it has not nudged the heading to open up the CPA.
You are also concerned the 4th ship's crew is distracted by another sailing yacht 1/2 a mile south of you under spinnaker. It is 2pm BTS on a sunny day and you reason that from the ship's perspective you might be lost in the sparkle of reflected light off the sea surface on the ship's port side.
You left Cameret 29 hours previously and have singlehanded through the night. Your brain is a bit groggy and your 420 sq ft main sail is held out via a boom preventer set on a port tack to catch the fickle SW wind.
What now skipper? Demonstrate your faith in 100% adherence to ColRegs.
Last edited:
awol
Well-Known Member
Rule 19d - You've determined that a close-quarters situation is developing by "radar" so do something that isn't a turn to port. I'm sure your boom preventer is rigged in a seamanlike way that allows you to gybe easily.
edit: reread your blurb - looks like you failed to follow that rule and carried on regardless. Ah well, you are fatigued and mistakes happen. Why not turn off your AIS, go below for a sleep and let your publicity machine deal with it all if it happens?
Last edited:
And tell me what you would have done, exactly.
awol
Well-Known Member
Not been awake for 29 hours and taken action to widen the cpa 20 minutes ago by gybing onto starboard.
MacMan
Well-Known Member
About Lunchtime on Sunday ? One of them was me. (prout 33 cat ) There were two or three fleets from Stokes Bay to Calshot and I tried to go round them all - and clearly diverted when I couldn't miss the entire fleet. I had the time on hand for once (drying berth) and novice crew so didn't fancy mixing it up close. Did get some waves which were appreciated. It's not always possible to avoid fleets in the solent but I do when I can.
fireball
Well-Known Member
Personally - light fickle wind, another yacht with a spinny up 1/2 mile south ... I'd probably shuv the donk on, turn 180 and head for the yacht with the spinny up.
That would have put you under the bows of ship no.2 that you had been crossing ahead by 0.6nm.
Have another try.