When you see a ship, never mind the IRPCS, just get out of the way

[Refueler]

You've applied common sense and courtesy to a set of defined rules, works every time!

Why thank you sir ...

I think that's half the trouble - applying common sense seems wrong to some. It appears that some consider IRPCS like the Holy Commandments handed down from mountain high. They are not carved in stone but are there to clear up any possible areas of doubt in a situation.

It would be interesting to hear some opinions on actions on part of a vessel in a congested area where others are coming in at all different directions / compass points ... something that Merch guys like myself experienced in such lovely waters as Dalian bay ... other areas as Subic, South China Seas, etc. etc. you can have some wild times out there ... 50nm of West African coast with dug-outs, small boats ... all sorts ....

Times you look at radar and see what appears to be confetti spread across it .. you look out bridge window and see a ribbon of lights horizon to horizon ...

 

[Genoa]

. But I would say that anyone who subscribes to a practice that includes "...never mind the IRPCS..." is a fool.

QUOTE]

I suppose you are one of those people that loiters near a pedestrian crossing and waits for a car doing 30mph to get within 10 ft of the crossing and then jumps out. Because you have the right of way.
To me it is about consideration of and for others. I answered "yes, with reservations" - generally it is easier for me to make a slight change than it is for the red funnel trying to dodge me and my 50 sailing mates all trying to get into Cowes. If we all move aside and give him a clean channel no one comes to harm.

Incidentally on the topic of AIS - 10 days ago 10 miles south of the IoW I got boxed in between 5 vessels. 1 Fast cat - poole to cherbourg, 1 coastal frieght heading west, 1 large fishing boat, all showing on the AIS,maintaing course and speed. Then 2 aircraft carriers appeared. No AIS signal. No uniform course/speed. They were all over the shop. It was extremly difficult to work out what rule applied. If as stand on vessel they change course/speed do they forfeit right of way? Can they claim "we are a warship" rule?

 

[Alfie168]

Having spent the weekend racing at Cowes, had we stuck rigidly to colregs there would have been at least two holes in our Sunsail 37 and the loss of our £2k damage deposit. As it was we bent a stanchion

We (herhum) on the other hand were never at fault.....of course

Of course you should obey the colregs, but you do see a lot of yachts getting the hell out of the way of container ships in ways which suggest that discretion has a part to play when push comes to shove.

As an addendum.. the sunday part of my racing weekend was match racing over near Calshot. Given the nature of match racing we were very grateful to those cruising sailors who made efforts to keep out of our way when they saw what we were up to. We gave a thankyou wave to as many as we could. Much appreciated, col regs or no col regs.

Tim

 

[goboatingnow]

I am a fan of the "get out of the way", it never pays to come into close quaters where you can avoid it. If you cant avoid it, then you have to reply on the COLREGS and hope the other guys sees you and acts properly

 

[l'escargot]

. But I would say that anyone who subscribes to a practice that includes "...never mind the IRPCS..." is a fool.

I suppose you are one of those people that loiters near a pedestrian crossing and waits for a car doing 30mph to get within 10 ft of the crossing and then jumps out. Because you have the right of way.

Not at all, there is nothing in the rules that allows me to do that. Nor do I expect the car driver to say "never mind the highway code" and run me over even though he has seen me crossing from a hundred yards away as he is running away from an artic he has just seen.

To me it is about consideration of and for others. I answered "yes, with reservations" - generally it is easier for me to make a slight change than it is for the red funnel trying to dodge me and my 50 sailing mates all trying to get into Cowes. If we all move aside and give him a clean channel no one comes to harm.

Exactly but if you followed the "never mind the IRPCS, just get out of the way" principle you would cause havoc in Cowes entrance as no one would have a clue what you were going to do next.

I am sure it was not your intention to suggest that you were going to ignore colregs just because you had seen a ferry?

 

[Refueler]

To me it is about consideration of and for others. I answered "yes, with reservations" - generally it is easier for me to make a slight change than it is for the red funnel trying to dodge me and my 50 sailing mates all trying to get into Cowes. If we all move aside and give him a clean channel no one comes to harm.

I only have one thing to say ... 'slight change' - I always make initially a bold change to SHOW what I'm doing then come to best course etc. slowly so that other vessel is not worried about my intention ... eg in Cowes entrance / harbour - it would be a smart turn to go as quick as possible to channel edge and then turn to run along - so Ferry has clear passage and also sees my action ... a small change of course may not be so apparent to the old man on the ferry bridge. It also has you in their path for longer !!

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

This strategm, recommended by a number of posters on this forum, is a source of continuing fascination to me. I won't say more, other than to wonder how many subscribe to it.

Here lies the body of Darren Grey,
Who died defending his right of way.
He was in the right as he went along,
but he's just as dead as if he was wrong.

 

[Danny Jo]

Here lies the body of Darren Grey,
Who died defending his right of way.
He was in the right as he went along,
but he's just as dead as if he was wrong.

I didn't think it would be long before Darren Grey was remembered. But is his memory relevant to the question unless his fate is compared with that of others who have been ignorant of, or ignored, the rules of the road?

My question was prompted by an encounter last week, while crossing from Port St Mary on the Isle of Man to Puffin Sound at the northeastern entrance to the Menai Strait, with two ferries steaming from Liverpool to Dublin.

Freestyle was motorsailing on port tack at 6 kts on a heading of 152 T in 10-12 knots of wind 350 T. Our radar transponder was switched on. The tide was sweeping us West, so our course over ground was about 160 T (We were showing the correct day shape, but that is not relevant here.) As we ate a delicious soup made from left-over vegetables, onions and ham stock, we noticed two targets on AIS roughly 12 Nm distant, side by side, about a mile apart apart, approaching from the East. The northerly one was travelling at 20 kts, COG approx 267 T, and was evidently overtaking the other which was steaming on the same heading at 18 kts. The closest points of approach (CPA) predicted by AIS were respectively 0.8 Nm and 0.3 Nm and were to occur in just over 35 minutes.

Leaving them a clearing distance of 1 Nm meant that from my point of view they were carving a swathe through the water 3 miles wide. Guessing that they would pass ahead, my first response was to knock the engine out of gear, which slowed us down to 4.5 kts. The predictable increase in the impact of the tide on our course made me change my mind almost immediately and alter course 25 degrees to port, which gave us a nice reaching wind and increased our speed again. A check on the AIS two minutes later showed the folly of this approach, because it was evident that our new course put us right in the path of the ferries. To alter course further to port seemed daft, given that it was now obvious that our original course would see the ferries crossing astern, so we reverted to it. I regretted my original impulse to "keep out of the way". There were at the time 8 other targets within 10 miles.

Edit 1: alteration of course to starboard was ruled out on the perhaps dubious grounds that the necessary gybe might upset the soup; moreover it might well have taken us close to the entrance to the northwest Anglesey TSS and involved a long haul back against the tide.

Edit 2: may I quote in my defence the result of this poll, which at the time of writing establishes that two thirds of expert Scuttlebutt opinion agrees, at least in part, with the statement: Never mind the IRPCS, just keep out of the way?

 

[goboatingnow]

Forgive me Freestyle, but I dont understand your logic. If your original AIS CPA computation showed .3 mile , then had you maintained your course and speed you would come very close to the fast craft., why did you maintain that you should of maintained your course and speed? so did it all result in a close quarter situation anyway

 

[l'escargot]

And that's it - I'm not bothered by people keeping out of the way, but I am bothered by "...never mind the IRPCS...".

 

[Searush]

Thank you for the promised explanation - I was just about to prompt you & ask what had happened. It's an interesting situation. What would have been the course of events without the "aid" of AIS?

My guess is that you would have maintained course & speed until the ferries were visible. Is it possible that the overtaking one may have completed her manouvre? Would the evasion tactics have become clearer - even simpler?

One hears of "radar assisted collisions", will we at sometime end up with AIS assisted collisions?
Steve K

 

[Danny Jo]

Forgive me Freestyle, but I dont understand your logic. If your original AIS CPA computation showed .3 mile , then had you maintained your course and speed you would come very close to the fast craft., why did you maintain that you should of maintained your course and speed? so did it all result in a close quarter situation anyway

It was the slower boat showing a CPA of 0.3 Nm. I don't remember the exact CPAs after our course change, but they were both less than 0.5 Nm, and one was predicted to be alarmingly close. (Edit: Bear in mind we were still around 10 Nm away, and that my memory is notoriously unreliable.)

We watched the AIS data closely for evidence of course changes by the ferries, and I formed the impression that the slower ferry put on a degree or two of starboard helm after the faster boat was clear of him, but as we did not make a written record we couldn't be sure.

In the event, they both passed around 0.8 Nm astern.

Edit: I've just read your question again, and seen that I missed the bit that went " . . . why did you maintain that you should of maintained your course and speed?"

Maintaining course and speed with a little over 30 minutes to a CPA of 0.3 Nm does not mean than one expects to come that close. The vessel concerned being overtaken, albeit with quite a wide berth, and I would not expect it to assess that there was a risk of collision until within, say, 5 Nm or so. At this point a small alteration to starboard by the slower ferry might be necessary to increase the CPA to something over 0.5 Nm.

What of the alternative - not maintaining course and speed? In spite of the fact that there was over 30 minutes before CPA, Freestyle was then less than 2 miles North of the track of the faster ferry, perhaps 7 or 8 minutes sailing time at 6 kts from the northern edge of my notional safety zone 1 Nm North of that track. I would have had to have slowed to 1.5 kts, or made a course alteration to port in the region of 50 or 60 degrees to stay outside that swathe. For what? So that the officer of the watch on the ferry could snort "What's this *anker playing at? I'm giving her two degrees to starboard and he's pissing me about. They're all the same these yachties - haven't got a clue about the colregs."

 

[photodog]

Thank you for the promised explanation - I was just about to prompt you & ask what had happened. It's an interesting situation. What would have been the course of events without the "aid" of AIS?

My guess is that you would have maintained course & speed until the ferries were visible. Is it possible that the overtaking one may have completed her manouvre? Would the evasion tactics have become clearer - even simpler?

One hears of "radar assisted collisions", will we at sometime end up with AIS assisted collisions?
Steve K

HA! Thats exactly what I was thinking! We are so tied up in all this technology and getting all this information ... is it making us think too much???

 

[Danny Jo]

What would have been the course of events without the "aid" of AIS?

My guess is that you would have maintained course & speed until the ferries were visible. Is it possible that the overtaking one may have completed her manouvre? Would the evasion tactics have become clearer - even simpler?

One hears of "radar assisted collisions", will we at sometime end up with AIS assisted collisions?
Steve K

You echo my own thoughts. It wasn't until the approaching vessels were much closer that we could measure bearing changes with a hand-bearing compass - with Freestyle on a run in a following sea, my bearings are accurate only to plus or minus 2 degrees. So without AIS, I imagine I would have been anxious right up to the point at which we could see that we had crossed their tracks.

In this regard, there is a contrast between the information available visually and that available from AIS. By eye, it is obvious when you have crossed the track of a larger vessel - you stop seeing so much of one side and see more of the other - but it's far from clear (to me) on AIS.

On reflection, given that I had a good 20 minutes to play with, what I should have done was to plot, on a paper chart, the positions and courses of the three vessels. This would have shown me that I was on course to pass ahead, albeit by not very much. More importantly, though, it would have shown me that, in order to pass a good mile astern, a much greater course change than we tried would have been necessary.

Uncertainties remain, of course, but there's no denying that AIS is very useful when there are ships about. Is there a danger that it offers false reassurance? Yes, I think there is.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Uncertainties remain, of course, but there's no denying that AIS is very useful when there are ships about. Is there a danger that it offers false reassurance? Yes, I think there is.

I don't think there is - I know for sure. I have been in a situation where one person sitting at the chart table looking at AIS was saying we would easily cross in front of a ship, whereas others in the cockpit could clearly see it was too close for comfort.

AIS is excellent as an early warning and information tool, but is far from safely reliable in close quarters..... eyeballs and a compass are much more effective, or radar if it is foggy.

 

[l'escargot]

It's about having confidence in your judgement. A simple passage plan from Cowes to the Hamble you can either go round the Brambles and the ferries or across the Brambles and avoid the ferries - you steer clear or work it out.

 

[jonjo]

By eye, it is obvious when you have crossed the track of a larger vessel - you stop seeing so much of one side and see more of the other - but it's far from clear (to me) on AIS.

I suspect this is because like the majority of 1st gen plotter/ais displays you are not provided with the bearing at CPA reading. Just a few of the laptop systems do this and in a close crossing situation bCPA will reverse from one side of the compass rose.

Edit: No that is nonsense, the bearing at CPA will change quickly when you make a collision avoidance maneuver. bCPA lets you know which way to turn to open up the gap when the CPA is 0.2nm. At a distance of say 4 miles and an AIS CPA reading of 0.2nm it is not immediately from eyeball pilotage which way to turn.

The magazines have been remiss in not providing more leadership on this issue.

But I do agree with your other point that in critical crossing situations at a sub 0.3 of a mile range you should be appraising the situation visually in the cockpit.

 

[Searush]

Thanks Freestyle & Moodynick,
A useful & informative summary of two real events. It's good to learn from the experience of others. I doubt I will ever get AIS anyway, I don't often do long passages & am often short handed (ie solo) so I prefer to use eyeball & H/H compass, rather than go below & play with electronics.

Having spent many years successfully crossing busy roads using eyeballs & brain only, I think I will stick to the familiar for potential collision situations at sea. Everything is moving much slower & further apart anyway. Although I can see the value of AIS alarms to singlehanders (if, unlike Jessica Watson, you remember to switch them on)

 

[jonjo]

As a matter of interest did you get a reply on VHF?

Yes it was quick, professional but perfunctory.

With the Condor beast growling menacingly in the fog coming at me doing 35 knots the AIS was showing time to CPA < 4 minutes, distance something like 1.7 miles and the CPA was wandering between 0.0 and 0.2 nm.

The VHF conversation went like this:

"Condor ferry this is sailing yacht MB"
4 seconds
"Sailing yacht this is Condor Ferry"
"Condor ferry, MB, I am 1.7 miles due north of you and my AIS shows a small CPA, do you have me on radar?"
3 seconds
"Yes we do"
"Condor ferry, MB, thank you out"

I noticed the ferry head more the east on AIS, presumably as it cleared rocks north of Herm. Just at the pint I got back into the cockpit the ferry loomed out of the fog for a minute about 1/2 a mile way.

In the same situation even the most costly MARPA radar installation would have been inferior technology, but one day I would like both fitted.

 

[RIB_imposter]

COLREGs only apply when vessels approach each other and risk of collision may exist. You can be in sight of one another and Colregs need not be applied if courses etc. are suitable.

sorry to be a pedant but this is not actually true. The Colregs apply at all times, certain of the rules (esp 12-17) only apply when a risk of collision exists. But e.g. rule 5 (lookout) applies at all times, rule 6 (speed) applies even when no specific collision risk exists (e.g. slow down in dense traffic, poor vis etc), rules 9, 10 & 18 I have always interpreted to apply before any collision situation arose (prevention rather than cure), Rules 20 onwards are about shapes/lights/sounds.