yesod
Well-Known Member
the 4.3kW 12v li-ion battery is around £4k+vat - quite a bill for replacing a 25kW!
When will diesel engines be replaced by electric ones?
- Thread starter Nostrodamus
- Start date
the 4.3kW 12v li-ion battery is around £4k+vat - quite a bill for replacing a 25kW!
Seajet
...
When thinking seriously of making new Anderson 22's, I rather fancied the idea of electric auxiliary engines, especially after working on the French Canals where I met people with small yachts pulling them with a line from the towpath to save money or avoid noise.
After a fair bit of research ( including long chats with a German U-Boat designer ! ) it became clear that battery technology is 'almost there but not quite yet', as car manufacturers have found ...
Such kit wouldn't be suitable for a narrow chord, lift keel design like the Anderson 22 yet, but may well be viable for a long keel design, using batteries as ballast - everything about the design would have to be as efficient as possible and range would still be limited, requiring a mindset more like the 1950's rather than the ' gazillion horespower, motor for hours straight into a gale' some modern cruisers exhibit - and the build & running costs wouldn't be strikingly cheap !
After a fair bit of research ( including long chats with a German U-Boat designer ! ) it became clear that battery technology is 'almost there but not quite yet', as car manufacturers have found ...
Such kit wouldn't be suitable for a narrow chord, lift keel design like the Anderson 22 yet, but may well be viable for a long keel design, using batteries as ballast - everything about the design would have to be as efficient as possible and range would still be limited, requiring a mindset more like the 1950's rather than the ' gazillion horespower, motor for hours straight into a gale' some modern cruisers exhibit - and the build & running costs wouldn't be strikingly cheap !
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snooks
Well-Known Member
Ice cream parlour in Largs you say?
The also do very good fish and chips
Not much difference with their pic...
The also do very good fish and chips
Not much difference with their pic...
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bbg
Well-Known Member
+1
Precisely, word-for-word, exactly what I was going to post, but you beat me to it.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Do you think a fuel cell - electric outboard rig would work on a mini sized boat?
Seajet
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Flaming,
I'm sure one could get anything working - including Dilithium Crystal motivated Warp Drive - if throwing enough money at it !
However fuel cells are still a touch pricey for us plebs, so a 2 stroke Mariner 5 will remain on board for the time being...
bbg
Well-Known Member
I'm sure you could get it to work - on my boat I typically used the engine for a total of 10 minutes per outing maximum (frequently 0 minutes - if the wind was favourable I sailed in and out of the marina). 2.2 hp drives the boat at hull speed, even without full throttle, so an electric would probably be enough. You wouldn't even really need a fuel cell or solar panels because you'd charge it ashore, and never use it enough to discharge it.
A lot of boats don't even have brackets for outboards. No one carries an engine when racing, and I think everyone who had an engine removed the bracket for the transat.
But then the original question was
and I'm not sure my (now ex-) boat qualifies.
Edit - but I did love my fuel cell. Seajet - did you hear that? I loved my fuel cell. Not in the biblical sense, of course.
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Seajet
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I'm sure you could get it to work - on my boat I typically used the engine for a total of 10 minutes per outing maximum (frequently 0 minutes - if the wind was favourable I sailed in and out of the marina). 2.2 hp drives the boat at hull speed, even without full throttle, so an electric would probably be enough. You wouldn't even really need a fuel cell or solar panels because you'd charge it ashore, and never use it enough to discharge it.
A lot of boats don't even have brackets for outboards. No one carries an engine when racing, and I think everyone who had an engine removed the bracket for the transat.
But then the original question was and I'm not sure my (now ex-) boat qualifies.
Edit - but I did love my fuel cell. Seajet - did you hear that? I loved my fuel cell. Not in the biblical sense, of course.
bbg,
what sort of boat was that then, easily driven by 2.2 hp and never carrying an engine while racing, but using a fuel cell ?!!!
If I get my dilithium crystals fired up I may visit your planet, though I fear it may be a long trip...
Andy
flaming
Well-Known Member
I was thinking more of that sized boat - not necessarily a mini. Cos if you're going to move away from direct drive diesel, then why not move away from diesel altogether? I don't know enough about Fuel Cells to know if they would drive an electric outboard directly from their output - or would they have to tickle charge a battery over a longer period of time than you wanted to motor for?
If the former, then as fuel cells grow in size and fall in cost scaling up to a system capable of driving a reasonable sized yacht suddenly looks good, as the weight savings should be significant.
onesea
Well-Known Member
I have done some homework in the past but could never get the costs to match up...
24' Bilge keel I figured an electric outboard: £2,665.00
http://www.seamarknunn.com/acatalog/info_TQ80-1212-00.html
With batteries
Half throttle 4.5kts 13.5Nm 3:00 3 hours ish??
Then having solar powered: £445
http://midsummerenergy.co.uk/buy/semi-flexible-solar-panels/gbsol70.html
Or similar for charging plus a wind generator if you are that way inclined.
Finally a generator: £6,751.35
http://chandlerydirect.com/acatalog/info_AGT4000_24a.html
For the days when you need all the power (yes it can supply 48v).
In doing this you can have a electric black box (£200??) to supply 240v as needed TV toaster
microwave SWMOB's hair drier you could potentially do away with gas?When you are in marina plug in a charger (£120?) and top up.
I believe for I could do allot of weekends without the generator. 1/2 hour in and out of harbour and solar/ wind gen would top up over a few days in the week, its the day you need 4 hours at 6 knots you are stuck without. weather forecast that goes sour..
Last thing costs
Add it up and its around 10k before considering fuel tanks and exhausts... I can get a tried and tested all new shiny diesel inboard and super folding prop fitted and working for that price...
If I had money to spend I would not think twice but you can buy allot of boat for 10k...
My experience and Trident 24. 3.5hp 2 stroke 4 knots flat water or + when motor sailing. 6hp 5.5 knot 4.5 knots in F6 headwind. 3.5hp F6 head wind no significant sea 1 knot (in harbour moving berth to busy to sail).
There is the problem 4.5knt OK 1 knt in seaway no steerage
PS Home work whilst pricing at SBS including asking Torqeedo man at SBS why they do not get together with Generator Man and make a package if it sells a few extra units... They both like the idea, business there for some one in the know?
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r_h
Well-Known Member
We're not there yet - at the moment, depending on the model etc etc, a £5k fuel cell might be rated to deliver 210Ah per day. But there's a lot of money being thrown into research at the moment, as well as economies of scale bringing the prices down, so I wouldn't be surprised to see it being a viable solution for a mid-sized yacht in 10-12 years' time.
Seajet
...
Flaming,
I am honestly not trying to be argumentative, I'm sure you are a good sailor.
However from an engineering point of view, batteries - even modern jobs for electric engines - are very heavy, and fuel cells are jolly expensive, a Space Shuttle pilot had a career-limiting rollocking for knackering one after incorrectly shutting down the systems after landing - I can understand his point of view, I'd just be glad to be on Mother Earth too !
As mentioned, exchanging batteries for 'dead weight' ballast may be the way to go, but it seems not quite yet.
bbg
Well-Known Member
I'm not really sure a fuel cell would provide enough juice to run an electric outboard directly (or recharging the battery at the same rate it is drawing down). Gut feeling says no, but someone brighter than me at electricity calculations would have to do to math. And even then, you'd have to carry methanol. Or have some big solar panels.
It might work as a truly auxiliary engine arrangement - just to get in and out of harbour, or for an hour or two max - but probably not for motoring from harbour to harbour when there is no wind.
I have also been told that there is a limit to how far prices of fuel cells can drop, because one of the raw materials required is platinum. Which is never going to be cheap.
IMHO, petrol outboards and diesel inboards will be the standard engines during our lives for most cruising and even racing boats. Some special exceptions will apply, but those will be the exception rather than the rule. IMHO.
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
You just need an extremely long cable.
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
You should have a look at the Dashews electric set-up. They say that they can spend several days at a mooring without having to use the generators. And they have fridges and deep freezes, aircon etc.
http://dashewoffshore.com/ac_systems.asp
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r_h
Well-Known Member
That's true at the moment, but my understanding is that there's considerable research directed at re-using spent platinum and in the use of other materials as a catalyst. If either is successful then prices could fall substantially.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Not entirely sure how my sailing abilities, or otherwise, are relevant to a discussion about electrical propulsion!
Obviously the current situation does not allow for this solution to work, but with fuel cells being relatively new to the marine market I'm just curious as to what the potential might be in 5-10 years.
The benefits in terms of weight - and especially the ability to decide where in the boat to put the weight - are obvious if the system can produce enough power to run an electric engine of sufficient size without having to lug around a large battery bank.
maxi77
Well-Known Member
At the end of the day there are only 2 possible substutes for fossil fuel propulsion, fuel cells and sterling engines. Both are costly today but the cost is falling all the time. They can both be scaled up enough for most of our needs as they are already used to power submarines for extended periods of air independant operations. Both technologies produce almost instant power and can run 24/7 in any weather. I suspect the fuel cell will come up first, there are already small fuel cells for boats to replace deisel/wind/water/solar generators, and big money is behind developments for mobile computing.
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
I think you might find battery powered yachts in the Solent at some point in time. But not anywhere where the engine might have to be used for a long time. I can't see the point of hybrid, the cars cost much more so I suppose the boats would too.