When will diesel engines be replaced by electric ones?

[Allan]

Dan, that may be your view, and you are welcome to it. Long may people share your view.

I just don't like the subtext of what you have written: that those with a different view (e.g. those who reach for the ignition button "too readily") are somehow to be pitied or looked down on.

Long live diesel engines. And long live engineless boats. To each their own. Just don't criticise me or others if we like something different than what you like.

Although I can now see what you mean, I didn't see that on first reading. Interestingly, to me at least, is that Dan has probably hit the nail on the head. My boat did 2400 GPS miles last year and used £118 worth of diesel in it's 50hp engine. I think using electricity to replace that is feasible and would suit me. Many similar boats use much more than that to achieve less miles, for them I'm sure diesel will be the answer for a long time. No style of boating is any better than any other, just different.
Allan

 

[Greenheart]

Blessed is the peacemaker!

Cheers Allan.

 

[Allan]

Not me.
My point is that the "hybrid" systems which have been seen as a failure, may not have failed. It is just that they were sold to the wrong people. I'm sure we have all seen references to "What was designed", "what was Built", "what was sold", "what was expected" etc. The system that would suit me would not suit everyone, or even most people. I still believe that using existing technology it would be possible to build a system that suits many people. Being able to run on a direct feed from a generator, giving the ability to run for a long period, in an emergency may put some peoples mind at rest.
Allan

 

[Greenheart]

I think I do see what you meant, Allan. At the moment, electricity wouldn't work well, for those who'd put the same high demands on it that they're accustomed to asking of diesel...

...but for less motor-orientated sailors (apparently I have to be careful how I phrase that!), including mad purists like myself, an electric auxilliary may well make the grade. Certainly it looks likely enough to seem preferable to diesel, to me.

Not sure if that answers Nostrodamus's original question here, though.

 

[Allan]

I think I do see what you meant, Allan. At the moment, electricity wouldn't work well, for those who'd put the same high demands on it that they're accustomed to asking of diesel...

...but for less motor-orientated sailors (apparently I have to be careful how I phrase that!), including mad purists like myself, an electric auxilliary may well make the grade. Certainly it looks likely enough to seem preferable to diesel, to me.

Not sure if that answers Nostrodamus's original question here, though.

I think the answer is here. If you choose to sail like most people, it will not happen for a long time. If you sail like you and I seem to, it is probably possible to do it with existing technology.
Allan

 

[Tranona]

Not me.
My point is that the "hybrid" systems which have been seen as a failure, may not have failed. It is just that they were sold to the wrong people. I'm sure we have all seen references to "What was designed", "what was Built", "what was sold", "what was expected" etc. The system that would suit me would not suit everyone, or even most people. I still believe that using existing technology it would be possible to build a system that suits many people. Being able to run on a direct feed from a generator, giving the ability to run for a long period, in an emergency may put some peoples mind at rest.
Allan

There is nothing unusual about your engine usage.

If you wanted to go down the electric with diesel generation route, it is available already, and has been for years. Just that, as I pointed out earlier it takes up a lot of space, is costly and does not have the efficiencies you think.

The basic problem that holds back potential developments is that conventional IC engines are so good at what they do - cheap, simple, reliable. Dan likes to see them all as big old fashioned, heavy, noisy things like the Listers, Sabbs etc of old. The reality as you know from the engine you have fitted is nothing like that.

 

[Allan]

There is nothing unusual about your engine usage.

If you wanted to go down the electric with diesel generation route, it is available already, and has been for years. Just that, as I pointed out earlier it takes up a lot of space, is costly and does not have the efficiencies you think.

The basic problem that holds back potential developments is that conventional IC engines are so good at what they do - cheap, simple, reliable. Dan likes to see them all as big old fashioned, heavy, noisy things like the Listers, Sabbs etc of old. The reality as you know from the engine you have fitted is nothing like that.

I see my fuel usage as totally normal for my sort of sailing.
The only efficiency I would like, as I have said before, is the ability to use some of the power that I can generate from direct/indirect wind and solar.
I'm sure there will never be any true development work done on any method of driving a yacht. Just as I'm sure there never has been. Maybe a little tinker about at some details but not proper development. Changes will only happen if/when well funded areas come up with something that can be made to fit. I think various technologies in the areas of motor and inverter efficiencies are starting to filter through. I'm not sure if much has been done on generator efficiencies but that would help too. As someone (possibly you) said earlier, later hybrid cars are a little better than early ones. This appears to be down to what am saying, little improvements in lots of areas, rather than some sort of new technology.
Allan

 

[maxi77]

BBG, you infer scorn that I didn't intend, or ever feel. And pardon me, but you misquoted me - I never said "too readily".

As you seem to say, to each their own. I'd call a calm sea-trip spoiled, by using diesel to get auntie home in time for the X-Factor. And I'd sooner limit my cruising ambitions than take on possibly perilous passages, relying on diesel to bail me out of trouble.

I concede, I'm very old-fashioned. But hopefully we each only control our own vessel; so no need for anyone to be unhappy!

I don't think you are old fashioned, perverse or in any way abnormal, you just get your pleasure your way, which is good. I have different views, and as long as you don't try to stop me getting my pleasure my way I am delighted for you.

 

[Greenheart]

Dan likes to see them all as big old fashioned, heavy, noisy things like the Listers, Sabbs etc of old.

That's not really true. Besides, I absolutely honour the unstoppable old Listers and Gardners, from days of old and still going strong. But I only like them aboard old motor yachts, where their rumble is part of the vessel's charm.

Actually I paid close attention to the relatively light weights of Volvo/Yanmar marine auxilliaries, when looking at whether their output might be equalled by electrics.

But I thought it was highly significant (and often overlooked) that as well as 150kg or more for a 27hp engine, a full 25 gallon steel fuel tank will nearly double that weight. Plus the battery for starting.

I'm not saying that's an unreasonable weight penalty for several hundred miles' worth of ever-ready motoring power; clearly it's great value and very convenient.

But I'd been thinking of what burden of batteries is permissible, considered as an overall portion of the yacht's displacement. In those terms, today's 'lightweight diesel' isn't actually that light, taken together with its fuel, etc.

 

[Tranona]

Have you ever tried to lift a Sabb? 3 times the weight of my Yanmar 1GM that I could lift in and out virtually by myself, it was half the weight of the ST twin it replaced. A Kubota 35 is 2/3rds the weight of a Perkins 4/108 and so on.

An electric+ generator would be twice the weight of just a diesel engine, but still similar amounts of fuel plus the batteries and all the tricky leccy stuff to make it work.

In the 25-45ft range you cannot touch a diesel as auxilliary. Below that alternatives, including electric for day sailers are possible. Above that mixed systems start to make some sense. However, for yachts the development is going into making them easier to handle, so bow thrusters, steerable drive legs and improved props are areas for development to make better use of the power available.

 

[Allan]

Have you ever tried to lift a Sabb? 3 times the weight of my Yanmar 1GM that I could lift in and out virtually by myself, it was half the weight of the ST twin it replaced. A Kubota 35 is 2/3rds the weight of a Perkins 4/108 and so on.

An electric+ generator would be twice the weight of just a diesel engine, but still similar amounts of fuel plus the batteries and all the tricky leccy stuff to make it work.

In the 25-45ft range you cannot touch a diesel as auxilliary. Below that alternatives, including electric for day sailers are possible. Above that mixed systems start to make some sense. However, for yachts the development is going into making them easier to handle, so bow thrusters, steerable drive legs and improved props are areas for development to make better use of the power available.

I'm not sure that a a generator would need to weigh as much as the engine that drives it. I also think that the losses involve in something like a drive leg would make it unsuitable for a truly efficient system. Some sort of improved prop would obviously help. Maintaining the most efficient system speed and having an adjustable pitch prop may be the way to go?
Allan

 

[Tranona]

The ones built so far have had a mixture of leg and shaft drive. Not sure the power losses through a leg would be significant and there are clearly "packaging" advantages in that set up. They also tend to use existing marine engines or generators as these already come with seawater cooling and exhaust systems - but a smaller hp engine would normally be used.

Perhaps you need to look at some of the hybrid solutions on offer - they have been reviewed in the mags from time to time - to appreciate how bulky and complex they are. One solution to the bulk is to isolate the engine in a different part of the boat, but that takes accommodation space. One installation (the 30 footer I mentioned) has the engine in the forepeak and the batteries in the keel. However, that is a long keel steel boat specially built to test the technology and it is difficult to see how it would work in a "normal" modern GRP boat of similar size.

Things could change dramatically if somebody built a small capacity high speed engine of 15-20hp that is rugged enough to operate in a marine environment. Think the engines designed for the new Jaguar and the Fiskar cars and you see what might be possible. However judging by past development cycles it will be many years before that technology filters down to mass production industrial applications that would carry over into yachts.

You are right about VP props - there are benefits to be gained from them, but so far, apart from arguably the Brunton, nobody has been able to make them so that they are cheap and reliable. Anyway for many people who just use the auxilliary for short periods they add little value over a fixed pitch prop.

 

[Nostrodamus]

It has been fascinating reading this thread and I can see that a truly electric replacement for a diesel engine is a way off mainly because of in inability to store/make efficient electricity.

Having said that we seem to be talking about a direct replacement so we do not have to change the way we sail at the moment. If we changed our way of sailing things may be possible.

Add solar panels, wind generators, towed generators where possible, use a smaller engine and sail far more. It maybe that a normal AWB cannot be converted and it is the design of the whole boat that needs looking at rather than adapting it.

There are those with far more knowledge than myself giving good information. I don't know and hence I asked the question. It will come one day but that day may still be a long way off.

 

[grumpygit]

So what we are saying is that at the moment batteries will not be in boats in general for some time.
Also the so called green cars are less green than a lot of new fuel efficient diesel cars considering you have to make the batteries and dispose of them.

Absolutely, but it goes deeper than the obvious, so I just thought I'd throw my two penneth in!
It's not just a case of fitting batteries and a motor to the prop shaft, a lot of expensive and complex electronics are absolutely necessary to control the drive motor and charging systems. For this we need to ask the question of reliability, the cost of repairs or replacement control units and a worldwide network of engineers capable to work on the systems.
The battery technology just isn't there yet and a there's chance that it will ever be. For what most of us would need or like to have as in a decent range in a cruising yacht. I've done plenty of passages of 30+ hours under engine where I've had no other choice. So with this in mind we might as well just use the diesel engine and save a vast amount of cash.
Also hybrids are not as economical as people think, the initial costs are greater, the fuel economy isn't that great and then you have the batteries that degenerate over time and use. The other aspect of hybrid is the impact of raw resources to produce and the environmental issue to rid these safely at the end of use.
Hydrogen fuel cell may happen as an alternative, but the fuel handling and storage begs a large question mark to the safety of such. As said by others, not in our lifetime.
I'm a tad of a ludite with the diesel engine at sea, I like the reliability of the few working parts, as little electrics/electronics as possible and fuel abundance.
We have had well over a hundred years to develop the combustion engine and it works better than anything else out there for cost and reliability . . . . . apart from, of course, the sail!

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