When will diesel engines be replaced by electric ones?

[Tranona]

So what we are saying is that at the moment batteries will not be in boats in general for some time.
Also the so called green cars are less green than a lot of new fuel efficient diesel cars considering you have to make the batteries and dispose of them.

Probably a good summary - except that batteries as we know them today will never be suitable for yachts.

Expect to see the empire fighting back over power plants for cars. The latest Ford 3 cylinder 1000cc turbo petrol engine sets new standards of efficiency and performance for family cars. There is too much invested in IC engines for them to disappear.

 

[boatboat]

water source heat pump powering a stirling engine.

 

[Nostrodamus]

so how many companies actually make engines.
It seems the same engines are just re badged and used over and over again for many years

 

[Tranona]

so how many companies actually make engines.
It seems the same engines are just re badged and used over and over again for many years

The choice is huge. Just in the small HP range there are 5 major manufacturers plus many small ones - and some manufacturers have several marinisers of the same basic engines. In terms of volume, two engines dominate - Volvo and Yanmar because they target the volume producers. As you move up the HP scale you find similar wide choice, but at any one time you tend to find one or two brands have dominance in a particular sector. Almost all base engines have multiple applications - automotive, industrial, marine, power generation etc to maximize use of basic power units. Basic engines do tend to have long lives - typical design cycle times are 10-15 years, but pressures to improve efficiency are tending to shorten this, particularly in automotive applications - less so in industrial.

 

[Otter]

typical design cycle times are 10-15 years, but pressures to improve efficiency are tending to shorten this, particularly in automotive applications - less so in industrial.

That would equate to an annual replacement charge of £1,000 for our boat. Are modern diesels so short lived? The Thornycroft in our CW has compression 'as new' and was installed in 1977. I can't see any Green argument for ever changing it; it will only go when one day it has to. As for the OP's question then the answer I'm sure is yes, but only once that eureka moment is experienced, either in electricity generation or storage. When one of those happens we will all be using ectrical propulsion, the benefits over exploding oil vapor in a large, heavy, noisy and smelly metal box are obvious.

 

[Nostrodamus]

That would equate to an annual replacement charge of £1,000 for our boat. Are modern diesels so short lived? The Thornycroft in our CW has compression 'as new' and was installed in 1977. I can't see any Green argument for ever changing it; it will only go when one day it has to. As for the OP's question then the answer I'm sure is yes, but only once that eureka moment is experienced, either in electricity generation or storage. When one of those happens we will all be using ectrical propulsion, the benefits over exploding oil vapor in a large, heavy, noisy and smelly metal box are obvious.

Ahhh but there will always be traditionalists wanting those oily smelly engines just the same as they want wooden boats. Surprised we have not had someone on here extolling the virtues of steam driven boats... now those were the days eh, wife in the engine room stoking

 

[Allan]

For years I have thought it would be possible to use some sort of electric power. Those thoughts happened again when I saw another hybrid car on Top Gear recently. It worked like a diesel electric train. That is, no mechanical connection between engine and wheels, just electrical and batteries to use when they are the most efficient way.
I think that sort of system would suit a yacht even better than a car. The generator motor could be a small diesel running at it's most efficient speed and placed almost anywhere in the boat. As said before weight is a good thing in certain areas so batteries could be placed as low as possible to become a benefit not a penalty. The best system, in my opinion, would have two drive systems with two props that can be used for charging when cruising speed is not too important. Props that could be feathered when the batteries are full or sailing speed is more important would help too. Add wind and solar charging to the package and I'm sure the generator would not be used very often.
I have, mostly in my head, a design for what I call my lottery boat, that is the boat I would have built if I started to do the lottery and won a silly amount of money. It has always had this sort of drive system.
Allan

 

[flaming]

For years I have thought it would be possible to use some sort of electric power. Those thoughts happened again when I saw another hybrid car on Top Gear recently. It worked like a diesel electric train. That is, no mechanical connection between engine and wheels, just electrical and batteries to use when they are the most efficient way.
I think that sort of system would suit a yacht even better than a car. The generator motor could be a small diesel running at it's most efficient speed and placed almost anywhere in the boat. As said before weight is a good thing in certain areas so batteries could be placed as low as possible to become a benefit not a penalty. The best system, in my opinion, would have two drive systems with two props that can be used for charging when cruising speed is not too important. Props that could be feathered when the batteries are full or sailing speed is more important would help too. Add wind and solar charging to the package and I'm sure the generator would not be used very often.
I have, mostly in my head, a design for what I call my lottery boat, that is the boat I would have built if I started to do the lottery and won a silly amount of money. It has always had this sort of drive system.
Allan

didn't Nigel Clader spec almost exactly this system (possibly minus the charging props) for his Najad? And wasn't there a series in YM?

 

[Greenheart]

Well done Allan! But be prepared for lots of metaphorical cold water from naysayers here!

I was thinking last night, that an old Catalac catamaran whose twin 1GM engines create as much power as the very efficient Agni electric motors, might be an interesting start point.

The point being, as soon as one of the aged Volvos becomes uneconomic to repair, rip it out and replace it with a hybrid electric system. That way, you retain diesel power in one hull when there aren't enough amps coming from the other...

...and you have silent power from the electric, when it is possible. Plus a whopping domestic electric supply.

That has to be the ultimate hybrid. A hybrid hybrid!

 

[Tranona]

That would equate to an annual replacement charge of £1,000 for our boat. Are modern diesels so short lived? The Thornycroft in our CW has compression 'as new' and was installed in 1977. I can't see any Green argument for ever changing it; it will only go when one day it has to. As for the OP's question then the answer I'm sure is yes, but only once that eureka moment is experienced, either in electricity generation or storage. When one of those happens we will all be using ectrical propulsion, the benefits over exploding oil vapor in a large, heavy, noisy and smelly metal box are obvious.

Sorry - you misunderstand. The design cycle is the life of the basic design of the engine before it is replaced with a new design. So the Volvo/Perkins 20X0 series ran from about 1990 to 2005. Its predecessor likewise was in production for about 15 years. Yanmar have tended to a bit longer - the GM dates from early 80s and some variations are still in production. Expect these cycle times to reduce as they have in automotive engines where 10 years is now a long time for a design. Since 1980s there have been 5 different new designs of small 4 cylinder Ford petrol engines.

The design life of an engine is typically 8000 hours - or roughly 50 years at a typical yacht auxilliery usage of 150 pa. In practice many last a lot longer (in hours) if they are run for longer periods - for example commercial, charter boats and boats that are used all year round, for example in Australia. 30 years is common in UK as you can see from the number of 70s and 80's boats that are now being re-engined. Often they have running low hours, but neglect, corrosion (particularly raw water cooled) and high cost of spares kills them off.

 

[Allan]

Well done Allan! But be prepared for lots of metaphorical cold water from naysayers here!

I was thinking last night, that an old Catalac catamaran whose twin 1GM engines create as much power as the very efficient Agni electric motors, might be an interesting start point.

The point being, as soon as one of the aged Volvos becomes uneconomic to repair, rip it out and replace it with a hybrid electric system. That way, you retain diesel power in one hull when there aren't enough amps to propel the other...

...and you have silent power from the electric, when possible. Plus a whopping domestic electric supply.

That has to be the ultimate hybrid. A hybrid hybrid!

I love the hybrid hybrid idea!
I hope some "naysayers" do arrive. It is very easy to only see the positives in any idea and can be good to hear some negatives to help you get over that.
Allan

 

[Tranona]

Well done Allan! But be prepared for lots of metaphorical cold water from naysayers here!

Big yawn! Not only did I describe that type of system earlier (not that I claim any superior knowledge!) but such systems have been proposed and indeed built already. There is a 30 footer tootling up and down the Medina with electric propulsion and an on board generator which has had shed loads of "government" (ie yours and mine) money thrown at it over the years. Never really worked to the point that it can be marketed - needs sophisticated electronics to control it among other things - and takes up twice the amount of space and costs at least twice as much as a conventional auxilliary.

Flaming refers to the Malo 45 that Nigel Calder has had built with EU money to fund such as system. Not heard very much about it since it was built. At that size and complexity of boat a dual system starts to make some sense as there is space to fit it , and a generator is likely to be fitted anyway. However, don't get the idea that it is simple or "green" - its real advantage is that you can also get on board electric powerr to run your microwave, electric winches etc. Silent power to nose you in and out of your mudberth is not the objective!

 

[Greenheart]

Did I mention naysayers, Allan?

Glad you like the Catalac idea. If you're interested in electric auxilliary possibilities, it's worth reading the many responses to my similiar question, last year: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268793

It's true, diesel is as yet too far from redundant, and electric power too far from perfected, to gain a great rushing wave of enthusiasm from contributors here. Worth keeping in mind though - if only as a view to escaping the noise and vibration that elderly diesels often exhibit.

A half-converted catamaran could enjoy the best of both worlds, perhaps.

Cue moans of dissent from the benches opposite...

 

[Tranona]

I admire your tenacity, Dan - but you act as if none of these things have ever been tried. Hybrid powered Cats were all the rage 5 years or so ago and several were built. However, did not live up to their promise, for all the reasons you should know about by now.

The hardware to do what you suggest is available already, and has been for years - just does not work as well as existing products. Constantly suggesting different variations on the same basic proposition will not result in any advancement. There needs to be a fundamental breakthrough in the basic problems of generation, storage and transmission of energy for propulsion.

 

[Allan]

Big yawn! Not only did I describe that type of system earlier (not that I claim any superior knowledge!) but such systems have been proposed and indeed built already. There is a 30 footer tootling up and down the Medina with electric propulsion and an on board generator which has had shed loads of "government" (ie yours and mine) money thrown at it over the years. Never really worked to the point that it can be marketed - needs sophisticated electronics to control it among other things - and takes up twice the amount of space and costs at least twice as much as a conventional auxilliary.

Flaming refers to the Malo 45 that Nigel Calder has had built with EU money to fund such as system. Not heard very much about it since it was built. At that size and complexity of boat a dual system starts to make some sense as there is space to fit it , and a generator is likely to be fitted anyway. However, don't get the idea that it is simple or "green" - its real advantage is that you can also get on board electric powerr to run your microwave, electric winches etc. Silent power to nose you in and out of your mudberth is not the objective!

Sorry I missed your earlier post when reading through the thread. Yes it was the Fisker (or as JC said Fister!) that bought this back to mind.
One problem I see with a lot of new designs is the obsession with using too much technology. I'm not a Luddite by any means but the electronics needs to be no more complex than a good charging system and battery monitors. All of which are readily available. Another key would be matching the battery side to the motors. Another key is ensuring the losses between mechanical power, electrical power and back to mechanical power are minimised. Charging from "free" power sources like solar, direct and indirect wind should make up for those losses.
Allan

 

[boatboat]

The biggest suntrap on a yacht is its sails. Incorporating photovoltaic cells on the sails is surely worth a look.

Rigid wing sail covered with solar panels driving a hybrid electric motor?

 

[Greenheart]

There needs to be a fundamental breakthrough in the basic problems of generation, storage and transmission of energy for propulsion.

Very true Tranona, electricity as a stand-alone auxilliary alternative, isn't good enough yet. And despite a reasonable technical grasp, I don't claim to wave a banner with any explicit, ground-breaking answers written on.

I only support the idea because I really, really don't enjoy the ubiquitous diesel thud that starts every time the wind isn't quite in tune with the crew's thirst for the yacht club bar. I enjoy sailing, actually being under sail, in a boat without an engine. I'd sooner redraw my calendar than disturb the peace by hurrying along under internal combustion.

Silent electric power, ideally recharged by some greenish means, seems to me to offer the occasional benefit of thrust, a sort of convenient benevolence, exactly like a breeze blowing in the direction you wanted to sail.

Somebody once said, there's nothing to match the satisfaction of unmooring, sailing a considerable distance, arriving safely and getting ashore without at any point needing to start the engine. That certainly sounds ideal to me.

It may not suit most people's real-world, time-stressed cruising style, but a fine-performing sailing boat whose auxilliary can supply timely squirts of silent thrust for docking and reaching buoys against the tide, seems to me as close to perfection as can be.

I riled the readers last year by suggesting that diesel convenience actually detracts from most people's sailing satisfaction, like having some cleverdick over your shoulder giving answers to a tough crossword. If we reach for the ignition so readily, why have sails at all?

That may be a different subject, but I s'pose I recognised even last year, that the electric auxilliary's inconvenience won't suit most folk today. We're too used to certain, automated ease and too fond of the 'get-out-of-difficulty-free' card, to ditch the diesel.

 

[bbg]

Dan, that may be your view, and you are welcome to it. Long may people share your view.

I just don't like the subtext of what you have written: that those with a different view (e.g. those who reach for the ignition button "too readily") are somehow to be pitied or looked down on.

Long live diesel engines. And long live engineless boats. To each their own. Just don't criticise me or others if we like something different than what you like.

 

[Tranona]

As I said, I admire your tenacity - it is just that your "ideal" sailing style is not one shared by everybody - indeed dare I say it a minority view. Please do not look down on people who want to take advantage of what is on offer to use their boats in the way they want to.

I have no doubt that in the future something will replace diesels, but it will come about as a spin off from mass market requirements, just as our little Kubotas, Yanmars etc are sidelines for the industrial engine builders.

 

[Greenheart]

BBG, you infer scorn that I didn't intend, or ever feel. And pardon me, but you misquoted me - I never said "too readily".

As you seem to say, to each their own. I'd call a calm sea-trip spoiled, by using diesel to get auntie home in time for the X-Factor. And I'd sooner limit my cruising ambitions than take on possibly perilous passages, relying on diesel to bail me out of trouble.

I concede, I'm very old-fashioned. But hopefully we each only control our own vessel; so no need for anyone to be unhappy!