When life at anchor becomes a drag

[daveg45]

Following on from my mad dash across the Aegean post I have tried searching for info regarding anchoring. I carry a 20kg delta and 60m of 10mm chain and 30m of rope giving 90m of rode on a 42' light displacement yacht. In addition I carry an FX16 Fortress which although not the ideal size it came my way cheap and I thought it ok for a kedge. I had considered the idea of using the fortress in tandem with the delta if anchored in strong winds but having read this....

http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/tandem-anchoring.php

It seems my thoughts are misguided.

To be fair I have never felt the need to use a second anchor although the most I have anchored in is gusting 35ish knots. The only time a dragged was when I failed to put enough chain out.

So when the meltimi blows what do you do?

Why do manufacturers refer to boat size and not weight?

 

[Tranona]

Perhaps because it is the easiest base to understand. You will find the range of sizes is relatively wide, but they are just indications of suitable sizes. Windage probably has more effect than weight on the loads on an anchor.

 

[noelex]

So when the meltimi blows what do you do?

The ideal is to have an anchoring system that will cope with storm force conditions and use this on an everyday basis. By using the system everyday you ensure it is working well and is always deployed, with perhaps the only need to let out a bit more scope if bad weather arrives unexpectedly.

The anchoring tables from companies like Lewmar tend to recommend very small anchors. The tables from Rocna (which includes displacement) and Mantus are more realistic, but many cruisers in the winder parts of the world go a bit larger than these tables suggest.

A good alternative philosophy is to go with the largest anchor you can comfortably handle.

I think your chain is adequate, although a bit more does open up some additional anchoring possibilities (and makes the where you drop the anchor for a stern tie up a bit less critical). The Delta is not a bad anchor in this area, but one of the concave roll bar anchors will work better. I would be inclined to relegate the Delta to a back up and replace it with a larger version of one of these anchors. If the roll bar anchors will not fit the steel Spade is also excellent. An extra (say)15kg of weight is only a small addition on the bow, but would give you a great deal of extra real security and psychological piece of mind.

Anchoring in the Meltimi should not be a big deal if you have good gear.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Exactly. When I sailed a catamaran some years ago the recommended anchor was much to light and small for the windage.

 

[estarzinger]

. I had considered the idea of using the fortress in tandem with the delta if anchored in strong winds but having read this....

http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/tandem-anchoring.php

It seems my thoughts are misguided.

I am not going to get into the "what's the best anchor" debate . . . . But please do realize that in "the real world" Tandem anchoring does work just fine. A lot of people use it very successfully in Patagonia, where they encounter very strong winds for the first time.

Peter (aka rocna) was trying to sell bigger anchor upgrades with that web site.

 

[daveg45]

A good alternative philosophy is to go with the largest anchor you can comfortably handle.

An extra (say)15kg of weight is only a small addition on the bow, but would give you a great deal of extra real security and psychological piece of mind.

Anchoring in the Meltimi should not be a big deal if you have good gear.

Yes I had considered a larger delta, however I am not sure it would stow in the bow roller properly when not in use. One problem always seems to lead to another so it seems. Then of course for daily use the unnecessary additional weight would make the windlass work harder.

 

[daveg45]

. . But please do realize that in "the real world" Tandem anchoring does work just fine. A lot of people use it very successfully in Patagonia, where they encounter very strong winds for the first time.
.

I guess the risk is the fortress wouldn't set and if the chain to the fortress was under the delta there is a chance the delta could be pulled out?

 

[noelex]

To see what anchor will fit try borrowing one, or you can download a template from some companies like Rocna and make your own cardboard anchor.
The windlass should be capable of lifting the total weight of chain and anchor (which it will have to do if you drag into deeper water) 60m of 10mm chain plus a 20kg anchor weighs almost 150kg so an extra 15 kg is not a lot. If you detail your make and model of windlass someone will be able to give you some practical advice on how it will cope on a daily basis with a heavier anchor.

 

[Poignard]

Yes I had considered a larger delta, however I am not sure it would stow in the bow roller properly when not in use. One problem always seems to lead to another so it seems. Then of course for daily use the unnecessary additional weight would make the windlass work harder.

With respect Dave, I think you should choose the size of anchor that suits your boat size/weight and likely cruising area. If that then turns out to be too big to suit your existing bow roller or windlass then you ought to change those to suit the anchor.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Hi Dave
We also have a 15 kg Delta and a FX 23 fortress ,
Over the years we too have used two anchors , deployed to form of a V shape and also set as tandem and it only been on twice that we had a problem .
In quite a few years , a good three mts of chain between anchor we find work great
This winter we have invested in a 20 kg Rocna and the Delta is going into the locker for a well earned rest but I wouldn't have any hesitation to use it in tendon if the need becomes it .
You can't beat a good night sleep .

 

[Sybarite]

Yes I had considered a larger delta, however I am not sure it would stow in the bow roller properly when not in use. One problem always seems to lead to another so it seems. Then of course for daily use the unnecessary additional weight would make the windlass work harder.

In French tests the Delta was said to hold well but did not reset as well as others on a windshift.

 

[Salty John]

Here we go again....

View attachment 40570

 

[NornaBiron]

Hi Dave i would agree with all of Noelex advice, We live on the hook 365 and use a 45kg spade and a 20 kg chum, we are approximately 30 tons and 14.6m and have no problems, the only advice i would give is if you use your rode make sure you use a chafer or rubber hose as you will be relying on the rope.

To see what anchor will fit try borrowing one, or you can download a template from some companies like Rocna and make your own cardboard anchor.
The windlass should be capable of lifting the total weight of chain and anchor (which it will have to do if you drag into deeper water) 60m of 10mm chain plus a 20kg anchor weighs almost 150kg so an extra 15 kg is not a lot. If you detail your make and model of windlass someone will be able to give you some practical advice on how it will cope on a daily basis with a heavier anchor.

 

[srm]

Way back in the 70's I used to leave my boat unatended in Shetland for a week or so at a time. Initially used two anchors and chains but always had a lot of untwisting to do so tried tandem anchors with sufficient chain between them so as to remain anchored in reasonable conditions while recovering and stowing the first anchor to come up. The only problems with tandem anchoring is that you have to deploy both anchors when first anchoring as you can't easily add the second anchor, and recovery can be awkward with one anchor at the stem head and the other on or near the sea bed. However if leaving my boat unatended for any length of time would use tandem anchors.

Since then for cruising have always used a bower anchor that I can trust up to gale force plus. With more wind lay second and if needed third anchor and warps using engine to motor into the wind clear of first anchor. This method has proved successful on two occasions in sheltered anchorages with winds that never dropped below 60 knots for a number of hours.

I have noticed when using two anchors and chains in strong wind / poor holding that should one drag you finish up with both in line, where anchor loads are shared, and effectively tandem anchored.

 

[estarzinger]

The "trick" to easily recovering tandom anchors is to have a light floating line tied to the shank of the forward anchor and clipped to the crown on the aft anchor. You pull the aft anchor into its bow roller in the normal way (windless usually), then unclip the light line from its crown, bring it around the headstay to the second bow roller (if you have a second) and use this line to pull the forward anchor into its roller. It is not very hard or slow when you have it practiced.

It is a bit more difficult if you only have one roller . . . But you still use the light line to lift the forward anchor up and over the pulpit/lifelines, to wherever you stow it.

 

[NormanS]

Way back in the 70's I used to leave my boat unatended in Shetland for a week or so at a time. Initially used two anchors and chains but always had a lot of untwisting to do so tried tandem anchors with sufficient chain between them so as to remain anchored in reasonable conditions while recovering and stowing the first anchor to come up. The only problems with tandem anchoring is that you have to deploy both anchors when first anchoring as you can't easily add the second anchor, and recovery can be awkward with one anchor at the stem head and the other on or near the sea bed. However if leaving my boat unatended for any length of time would use tandem anchors.

Since then for cruising have always used a bower anchor that I can trust up to gale force plus. With more wind lay second and if needed third anchor and warps using engine to motor into the wind clear of first anchor. This method has proved successful on two occasions in sheltered anchorages with winds that never dropped below 60 knots for a number of hours.

I have noticed when using two anchors and chains in strong wind / poor holding that should one drag you finish up with both in line, where anchor loads are shared, and effectively tandem anchored.

When leaving our boat unattended, sometimes for weeks at a time, in the Outer Hebrides, we use two anchors in a "Bahamian Moor". This reduces the swinging circle, and probably more importantly, reduces the angle at which the anchors are pulled.

When lying to two anchors in a Vee, we quickly learned not to use two all-chain rodes. Untwisting a 5/8" chain from a 3/4" chain, each with 140lb anchors, can be quite time consuming. At that time we had quite a big boat.

 

[KellysEye]

Our view was use an anchor one size bigger than recommended. We planned for storm conditions with a total of three anchors one a monster Fortress and all had chain, but our boat was heavy displacement.

 

[Mrnotming]

+2 for OP Noelex recommendation re windlass capability: if all gear becomes deployed in deeper water than gear extends to, you need enough grunt in the windlass motor to recover the total deployed weight esp if tandem( inline) anchors are deployed.So if like me, you are off Giglio (It) and the bottom suddenly shelves away to 150 metres depth, it gets embarrassing! 1000W windlass, remote from the batteries, can only handle so much, before the totally inaccessible breaker decides to quit! Now in more suitable shallow mucky waters Bouche de Rhone!

 

[duncan99210]

Anchor threads are almost like philosophers arguing about how many angels can stand on the head of a pin, as each of us has a different idea of the ideal set up. So, all I can do is to say what we have for our boat and how it works. We have a 20kg Rocna (straight shaft....) with 70 metres of 8mm chain and a 1000w windlass. We've anchored in winds up to about 60 knots with that as the only anchor and not dragged; however, that was on a shallow muddy bottom. We've dragged in 10 metres of water over weed in less than 15 knots.......
As a back up we have a Guardian G23 plus 5 metres of chain and 60 metres of rope, which we sometime deploy in a V if we're on indifferent holding and expecting a blow. With that set up in place, we've not dragged at all, despite some entertaining winds. As a final fallback, there's a 16 kg danforthish in the locker which we'll deploy if all else has failed.
So what? The set up has worked for us throughout the Med, it's seen us stay put in some high winds and has allowed us to sleep well at night. However, if the wind is up, then we always use the iPad anchor alert app by the bunk to watch over things for us. It alarms only when an average of 10 position readings show a move out of the safety zone, so is not prone to false alarms like earlier ones I tried; might be worth having whatever you anchor set up is!

 

[silver-fox]

I am not going to get into the "what's the best anchor" debate . . . . But please do realize that in "the real world" Tandem anchoring does work just fine. A lot of people use it very successfully in Patagonia, where they encounter very strong winds for the first time.

Peter (aka rocna) was trying to sell bigger anchor upgrades with that web site.

Just for the sake of accuracy Peter Smith of Rocna was an advocate of Tandem anchoring and designed and drilled the Rocna anchor to be used in Tandem. The Rocna web site contained advice on how to do this. Rocna did however express the opinion that an anchor should be sized to enable it to cope with all but exceptional circumstances without the need for a second anchor.

I felt at the time, and still feel, that this is decent advice

Alain Poiraud, who developed the successful Spade anchor, was passionately against tandem anchoring, arguing that it actually diminished the effectiveness of the primary anchor and that anchors in tandem were less effective than a single anchor. If I remember correctly the criticism of this opinion, and the tests Alain carried out, were that the tandem anchors being close coupled with insufficient chain between them.