When did Bavaria Yachts change?

[Baggywrinkle]

What percentage value did both boats lose?

Or worse still what absolute value did the boats lose ....

I priced up a centre cockpit 37 ft. HR in 2009 as I thought I might just be able to afford one (wishfull thinking but it had to be done). The pricelist from Aug 2009 has base price at 272,986€ inc Vat.
I needed to add another 71,540€ to get a reasonable sail-away spec (sails, anchors, electronics etc.) - have a look at the options list, it made me cry.
Then a further 11,000€ approx for delivery to the Med.
All in 355,000€ give or take.

A 1999 HR 36 (37 wasn't around then) could be had in 2010 for around 160,000€ (50% of the 2010 new price)

I also got a quote for a Sun Odyssey 39i new and it came in at 141,709.28€ ex. Vat. So 168,634.05€ inc Vat delivered to the Med.
A 1999 Jeanneau of similar length was approx 70,000€ (40% of the 2010 new price)

So the purchasing power of a HR from 1999 was 50% of a 2010 HR.

The purchasing power of a Jeanneau from 1999 was 40% of a 2010 Jeanneau.

Fast forward 10 years .... when I come to trade in my 10 year old HR for a new one in 2020 I will have a 50% deposit (my old yacht) and would need to find a further 200,000€ or whatever the inflation corrected equivalent is in 2020.

A Jeanneau in 2020 would be worth 40% of a new one and I would have to find 100,000€ to replace it with a new one.

In both cases I would be back where I started with a new yacht but the HR would have cost double.

After alot of number crunching I bought my current boat which is a 1999 Bav 36. The maximum amount I can possibly lose through depreciation is €34,200 because that's what it cost - in terms of bang for your buck it's hard to beat.

Whats nice about the 38 ocean, is that all the gear used in those boats... The doors, the electrics, the hatches, windows, mast, boom, steering gear, Even the upholstery.... Is exactly the same as on our simluar vintage 31...

I noticed that to, I've got the same upholstery, electrical panel, binnacle, in fact the whole chart table area is identical ... I really quite liked the Bav Oceans but as they were never popular charter boats, the prices remained out of my reach as there was no over-supply from charter fleets.

 

[Tranona]

The real test is the residual value. A 98 Moody 36 on the market for near to£90k whereas the Brav is less than £50k.

You need to compare apples with apples. Firstly a Moody 36 will not fetch £90k - however good it is. A Bavaria Ocean 38 which is its nearest competitor, as others have pointed out usually has an asking price of £70-80k and sell easily. A £50k Bavaria of that size and era such as my 37 was £80k new, not £105k. Much of the equipment, furniture and fittings are same as the Ocean, but the boat was mass produced and aimed at a different market.

 

[NealB]

What percentage value did both boats lose?

Aha....I was taking it that the two boats would have had similar prices when new.

You could be right: the Bavaria may have been much cheaper.

(it's getting a bit late for me!)

 

[Tranona]

Aha....I was taking it that the two boats would have had similar prices when new.

You could be right: the Bavaria may have been much cheaper.

(it's getting a bit late for me!)

Even though its late - think about the B******s that is talked about depreciation on cars when they try and convince you that an Audi or BMW depreciates less than a common or garden Ford. Just look at the simple sums. The published depreciation is based on basic list prices. So a £20k list Mondeo is worth say £9k at 3 years and a £30k Audi is worth £16k. However the Mondeo will actually have cost no more than £17k new, probably nearer £15k, whereas you can't buy a £30k Audi without £5k of extras. So in 3 years the Ford has lost £8k (17-9) or 47% and the Audi ££19k (35-16) or 54%.

Gets even more complicated with boats because at almost every price point in the market for new boats, the list price can be as low as 75% of the final invoice price - that is extras can add 33% to the price of the boat, much of which is not reflected in the secondhand price when the boat is a few years old.

If you follow used boat prices for relatively new boats you will see a strong correlation between the price of new boats and used ones - that is when the new price rises rapidly on desirable boats the used boat price also rises. Very obvious if you look at HR prices where there is limited supply of used boats - but the cost of used in relation to new is comparable with other brands, as Baggywrinkles has explained.

 

[NealB]

Thanks (yet again!), Tranona, that sounds plausible.

I think the newest boat I've ever owned was well over 25 yo when I purchased her, so I've never taken much interest in early depreciation against original new price.

 

[Whitelighter]

That is not quite correct. It was the original owners that went for the mass production strategy - and then sold out at the top of the market.

Yes, but mass production isn't the issue. When the original owners went for mass production they still used quality deck fittings etc. when they sold the company the new owners looked to make 'cost savings' on an already efficient production line and that us where the problems started for sure

 

[Bobc]

Yes, but mass production isn't the issue. When the original owners went for mass production they still used quality deck fittings etc. when they sold the company the new owners looked to make 'cost savings' on an already efficient production line and that us where the problems started for sure

Which was in June 2007

 

[Tranona]

Yes, but mass production isn't the issue. When the original owners went for mass production they still used quality deck fittings etc. when they sold the company the new owners looked to make 'cost savings' on an already efficient production line and that us where the problems started for sure

Still not sure where you get that from. The deck fittings have not changed - usual mixture of Harken, Selden, Rutgerson etc. Exactly the same as the earlier boats. The savings were in simplifying construction and reduction is spec of interior fittings, particularly the woodwork on the 2007 models. If you compare my 2001 37 with a 1998 35 (which belongs to another club member) and on which it is based, you will easily see what the differences are, and they are not in the hardware. Just to give some idea - untrimmed ply bunk bases, plain upholstery (no rolls) plain veneered composite doors instead of solid ply fielded, no gas struts for locker lids, no wood trim in the loo, plain toe rails instead of slotted - all significant cost savings in addition to the simplified construction of the interior. No change in the hardware or rig.

 

[Simondjuk]

It seems there may have been a transitional phase too then, as I seem to have got all the earlier things except the slotted toe rails and the gas struts. The gas struts I'm planning to add to both the cockpit lockers and the saloon seat. The slotted toe rails, I guess I'll have to live without, but it does rather annoy me that all the water aft of the midships fairlead has to run aft and off the back of the boat when washing down.

 

[Whitelighter]

Still not sure where you get that from. The deck fittings have not changed - usual mixture of Harken, Selden, Rutgerson etc. Exactly the same as the earlier boats. The savings were in simplifying construction and reduction is spec of interior fittings, particularly the woodwork on the 2007 models. If you compare my 2001 37 with a 1998 35 (which belongs to another club member) and on which it is based, you will easily see what the differences are, and they are not in the hardware. Just to give some idea - untrimmed ply bunk bases, plain upholstery (no rolls) plain veneered composite doors instead of solid ply fielded, no gas struts for locker lids, no wood trim in the loo, plain toe rails instead of slotted - all significant cost savings in addition to the simplified construction of the interior. No change in the hardware or rig.

The brands may be the same, but I 'got that' from comparing a 2002 40 ocean with a 2008 40 cruiser. Winches, cleats, stainless rails etc all smaller/undersized on the later boat.

And I am not knocking Bavaria, if I could find one I'd have an Ocean 47 in a heartbeat.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Even though its late - think about the B******s that is talked about depreciation on cars when they try and convince you that an Audi or BMW depreciates less than a common or garden Ford. Just look at the simple sums. The published depreciation is based on basic list prices. So a £20k list Mondeo is worth say £9k at 3 years and a £30k Audi is worth £16k. However the Mondeo will actually have cost no more than £17k new, probably nearer £15k, whereas you can't buy a £30k Audi without £5k of extras. So in 3 years the Ford has lost £8k (17-9) or 47% and the Audi ££19k (35-16) or 54%.

That argument isnt valid. The lease cost of a BMW 3 series is marginally less than that of a Mondeoop because the overall cost of running a BM is less than that of a Mondeo. The lease companies are hard headed and cost up based on real life experience. You might well argue that the punter paying a higher price for a second hand BM is daft ( and I would agree with you) but thats the reality of life. A BMW fleet car is cheaper to run.

You need to compare apples with apples. Firstly a Moody 36 will not fetch £90k - however good it is. A Bavaria Ocean 38 which is its nearest competitor, as others have pointed out usually has an asking price of £70-80k and sell easily. A £50k Bavaria of that size and era such as my 37 was £80k new, not £105k. Much of the equipment, furniture and fittings are same as the Ocean, but the boat was mass produced and aimed at a different market.

You are quite wrong here too. The Moody will fetch something in that area - there are 3 for sale on YBW all between 90 and 95k. There are rather more Bav 37 for sale ( the equivalent) for 59 to 65k at the same age. You are right in one respect though - the Bav is aimed at a different market just as the ford is aimed at a different market to the BMW. Nothing wrong with that and in purely functional terms you have probably bought just as good a boat as the Moody. Just as a Ford is probably as good as a BMW or even a Dacia at getting you from A to B.

Pride of ownership is an altogether different matter. And no one buys a sailing boat for entirely rational A to B transport reasons. Neither you nor anyone looking at your boat would be as proud of it as of the alternative more up market models however much you try to convince both us and yourself.

But I do not understand why Bav owners feel the need to be so defensive. They are excellent value for money basic boats. What is there to be defensive about? I would have thought that the Oyster owner had a lot more reason to be defensive if indeed he cares what anyone else thinks.

 

[NealB]

I've being doing a spot of googling.

To my eye, the 350 Lagoon (from early 90's) looks pretty good, and the interior lovely.

Has anyone got a link to a site with the yard specs, please?

I've seen adverts giving drafts of: 1.35, 1.5, 1.65 and 1.8m. Was there really such a range?

Can anyone explain the difference between the Lagoon and the Caribic?

Thank you.

 

[NealB]

But I do not understand why Bav owners feel the need to be so defensive. They are excellent value for money basic boats. What is there to be defensive about? I would have thought that the Oyster owner had a lot more reason to be defensive if indeed he cares what anyone else thinks.

Maybe they're not defensive, or, if they are, maybe it's because some people seem to be unecessarily in yer face confrontational.

 

[Tranona]

The brands may be the same, but I 'got that' from comparing a 2002 40 ocean with a 2008 40 cruiser. Winches, cleats, stainless rails etc all smaller/undersized on the later boat.

And I am not knocking Bavaria, if I could find one I'd have an Ocean 47 in a heartbeat.

They are smaller because they are different designs. The Ocean series are completely different and about 20% greater displacement - therefore greater sail area, therefore larger gear. Apples and Oranges - not defensive, just trying to be rational! Exactly the same with my 37 cruiser displacement 5360kg, sail area 62 sqm or 58 in mast. 38 Ocean displacement 7500kg, sail area 77 sqm 2007 38 cruiser displacement 7200kg 72 sqm. So, you would expect them to have different size deck gear, although the 38 ocean probably was specced higher given its target market.

 

[Tranona]

That argument isnt valid. The lease cost of a BMW 3 series is marginally less than that of a Mondeoop because the overall cost of running a BM is less than that of a Mondeo. The lease companies are hard headed and cost up based on real life experience. You might well argue that the punter paying a higher price for a second hand BM is daft ( and I would agree with you) but thats the reality of life. A BMW fleet car is cheaper to run.



You are quite wrong here too. The Moody will fetch something in that area - there are 3 for sale on YBW all between 90 and 95k. There are rather more Bav 37 for sale ( the equivalent) for 59 to 65k at the same age. You are right in one respect though - the Bav is aimed at a different market just as the ford is aimed at a different market to the BMW. Nothing wrong with that and in purely functional terms you have probably bought just as good a boat as the Moody. Just as a Ford is probably as good as a BMW or even a Dacia at getting you from A to B.

Pride of ownership is an altogether different matter. And no one buys a sailing boat for entirely rational A to B transport reasons. Neither you nor anyone looking at your boat would be as proud of it as of the alternative more up market models however much you try to convince both us and yourself.

But I do not understand why Bav owners feel the need to be so defensive. They are excellent value for money basic boats. What is there to be defensive about? I would have thought that the Oyster owner had a lot more reason to be defensive if indeed he cares what anyone else thinks.

As with my response to whitelighter, you are not comparing the right boats. The comparator to the Moody is the Ocean 38, not the 37. My 37 of the same era was just under £80k new compared with well over £100k for the Ocean and the Moody. Ocean 38s usually have an asking price of £80+.

The car comparison is valid. The reason lease companies can charge lower rates on BMWs is because they get 25-30% discount with guaranteed buy backs to feed the secondhand market. Such deals are not available to private buyers. So, if you were a private buyer of a loaded BMW you would experience the loss in value suggested, because the secondhand price is determined by the fleet seller who has bought the car at least 25% less than you. Clever marketing for BMW. Mate of mine ran a company providing hire cars for insurance claims. At one point BMW gave him the use of new cars free for anything up to a year so that they could sell them on as "nearly new" cars.

 

[jordanbasset]

Pride of ownership is an altogether different matter. And no one buys a sailing boat for entirely rational A to B transport reasons. Neither you nor anyone looking at your boat would be as proud of it as of the alternative more up market models however much you try to convince both us and yourself.

What a load of rubbish, how on earth can you say that a Bav owner would not get the same pride as ownership when compared to the other models. Speaking for myself I was over the moon with my boat, it was incredible for me to own any boat, I was very proud of it and where it took us in great safety and comfort. I picked it out following long research and views of many types of boat, yes money was a factor, isn't it always, but that in no way diminishes the sense of satisfaction and pride in owning your own boat. Such sneering, I am considerably richer, put down attitudes like yours, I am glad to say, are not common in the boating community
I would go further, you can have pride in any boat you own, whatever size and price.

 

[Neil_Y]

I've being doing a spot of googling.

To my eye, the 350 Lagoon (from early 90's) looks pretty good, and the interior lovely.

Has anyone got a link to a site with the yard specs, please?

I've seen adverts giving drafts of: 1.35, 1.5, 1.65 and 1.8m. Was there really such a range?

Can anyone explain the difference between the Lagoon and the Caribic?

Thank you.

The Caribic had two aft cabins the Lagoon (I had a Lagoon 390) was the so called owners version with a single huge aft cabin.

Mine was first owned by a very wealthy individual who spared no expense on extras and upkeep, he even had his own design inlaid in the top of the saloon table, so pride of ownership and cost was not a problem for the early boats. They did come with different keels I had a link to a brochure somewhere. These boats had Kevlar collision areas and carbon strengthened cross beams as well as many more bolts and larger bolts for rigging fixings.

 

[NealB]

The Caribic had two aft cabins the Lagoon (I had a Lagoon 390) was the so called owners version with a single huge aft cabin.

Mine was first owned by a very wealthy individual who spared no expense on extras and upkeep, he even had his own design inlaid in the top of the saloon table, so pride of ownership and cost was not a problem for the early boats. They did come with different keels I had a link to a brochure somewhere. These boats had Kevlar collision areas and carbon strengthened cross beams as well as many more bolts and larger bolts for rigging fixings.

Neil, thanks.

Your Caribic v Lagoon seems to make sense.

A brochure link would be useful, if not too much hassle, but certainly not urgent.

 

[Neil_Y]

Pride of ownership is an altogether different matter. And no one buys a sailing boat for entirely rational A to B transport reasons. Neither you nor anyone looking at your boat would be as proud of it as of the alternative more up market models however much you try to convince both us and yourself.

Pride of ownership comes with knowing you have a great vehicle or boat that does it's job not with the badge. I've sailed a Bav 390 and a Sweden 38 (of similar vintage) many miles including trans ocean and the Bav was a better boat in both design and build as far as I was concerned. The teak deck was not as thick and the upholstery not as plush but as a boat it won hands down. As far as pride is concerned I looked after that boat with a great deal of pride, and happily parked it alongside Swans, HR's and Swedens and never felt I wanted to swap. I also drove a Volvo 245 with pride even though I had an M3 in the garage at the time. When visiting an owner of a superyacht for work I was driving the Volvo, parked next to his GT3 he remarked what a great vehicle, the brokerage manager was the only one looking embarrassed.

What was I trying to say? pride is dependant on how the owner feels not on the badge if that makes sense.

Funny I normally avoid these types of debates and I'm not defending Bavs or Bav owners, just trying to explain how they might see things.

 

[photodog]

Maybe they're not defensive, or, if they are, maybe it's because some people seem to be unecessarily in yer face confrontational.

I think it's down to the fact that for some reason bavarias just seem
To attract a lot more critiscm... I don't see folks having a pop
Continuously at the French brands, despite the recent keel loss in Cornwall,
Nor do people attack brands which undoubtedly are much worse, Such as a certain us brand without back stays which any modicum of examination will reveal build issues beyond the pale.... And which are famous for their grp composite rudder shafts.....

I think it comes down to a load of ex droopy headliners westerly owners who suddenly realised with the launch of the Bav 34 in 1999 with its lloyds certificate, good looks, decent build, and democratising costs from the germans that started
All of the trouble.... None o which a uk manufacturer could match and which drove all the little englanders potty.