When did Bavaria Yachts change?

[Simondjuk]

Thanks for all the replies, which, with one exception, seem to confirm my own perceptions.

Lots of very useful nuggets of information in there.

My only real hands on experience with a 'Bav', was when we chartered a brand new 42 from Sardinia, about 6 years ago. There were 4 adults on board (Joscelyn and myself, plus a couple of non-sailing friends along for a bit of fun in the sun).

I was impressed with the accommodation (though, as we owned an old, 36 foot, wooden gaff cutter at the time, I was, perhaps, easily impressed in that respect). I also liked the ease with which she could be chucked around, under power, in marinas, turning on a sixpence.

On the last day, we had a seriously strong Westerly breeze (I won't give Beaufort, 'cos you'll think I'm exaggerating!) for the final trip back from Maddalena to Portisco. We had a fast, exhilerating run/ reach back, under rolled genoa only, in reasonably sheltered waters.

The only thing I didn't like was the horrible white, plastic faux leather upholstery. I was sliding around all over the rather too large navigator's seat.

Anyway, if we do change boats, it'll be one of the older models we'll be looking for. I quite like the look of the 390 Caribic.

Thanks again.

If you find yourself on the Hamble and think it would help you have a better idea of what to expect in your search, let me know and I'll happily show you our example of a pre-millennium Bav, warts and all. Not that there are many, if any warts.

Whoa! Stop the press! I just found a wart! One of the solid mahogany locker doors in my forward heads has BOTH the tiny rubber buffers missing from their neatly drilled little holes. Having checked all the other locker doors and found all present, I can only assume they're not falling out, but were never fitted. Such complacency in the build. How will I sleep now!

 

[NealB]

Many thanks for that kind offer, Simondjuk.

I'll see how our catamaran sale goes.

 

[Goldie]

Pre 94 models such as 350, 390, 410 were very different in design and construction to later models. These models are comparable with yachts such as Sweden and HR of similar vintage. I believe the 96 models were similar but don't know them as well..

OP: A friend of mine is shortly selling a 350 (1992 I think). If you're interested per chance, please PM me.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Well, as you will see from thee many posts here Bavarias of all ages are used for long term liveaboards very successfully. Yes, of course you can spend twice as much money on a similar size boat, but there are/were plenty of "decent" boats at much less than twice the price. Not surprisingly, many of the builders are no longer in business, partly because they failed to provide good value.

Not sure what you mean by the "first" Bavs - as the older ones as is pointed out above were very expensive boats, comparable with Swedish boats at the time. If you read my potted history, you will see that the big price advantage came about in the 1997- 2003 period when they switched to mass production, going from 500 boats a year to 3000. You only had to compare what was on offer at the time to see that the price advantage was only part of the reason for the success. They were simply better value boats. Again you will see several posts here and elsewhere (including mine) that shows they do not "fall apart" and stand up very well to hard use. Mine was launched in 2001, delivered to Corfu, went straight to work and did average 25 weeks a year for 7 years as a charter boat and never once failed to meet its commitments. You perhaps made a mistake by not buying one.

You are welcome to look at my 13 year old boat anytime. You won't find anything broken and no structural faults. No leaks, keel still on, interior furniture still immaculate, teak cockpit sound, all the electrics work etc etc. The only things major that have gone wrong are Volvo saildrive and Lofrans windlass - both exactly the same items as fitted to Swedish boats twice the price!

I admit I wasnt aware of Bavaria's existence before they went for the cheap and cheerful - did they even import into the Uk then? I first became aware when their 30 footer was almost half the cost of a westerly even after the necessary extras had been added on. And the Bav owner / salesman on the stand had just come back from a transatlantic in a new one with a consuiderable tale of woe. So I dont think I missed an opportunity - I bought a Prout cat instead.

Sorry but I just have to point out this thread http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?267561-Bavaria-39-keel-problems but I'm sure you wont mind the hull flex involved.

 

[NealB]

I admit I wasnt aware of Bavaria's existence before they went for the cheap and cheerful - did they even import into the Uk then?

Yes... I remember their ads in YM.

 

[Tranona]

I admit I wasnt aware of Bavaria's existence before they went for the cheap and cheerful - did they even import into the Uk then? I first became aware when their 30 footer was almost half the cost of a westerly even after the necessary extras had been added on. And the Bav owner / salesman on the stand had just come back from a transatlantic in a new one with a consuiderable tale of woe. So I dont think I missed an opportunity - I bought a Prout cat instead.

Sorry but I just have to point out this thread http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?267561-Bavaria-39-keel-problems but I'm sure you wont mind the hull flex involved.

That is an indictment of Westerly rather than a criticism of Bavaria. Westerlys were cheap and cheerful boats - but clearly did not sell at premium prices! Not surprising that they went out of business when customers were offered a cheap and cheerful boat for substantially less money. Not sure why you are talking about 30' boats when buying for long term cruising. That is not what either the Bav 30 or a comparable size Westerly is designed for.

In 1998 if you were looking for a new 35-38' or so ocean cruiser you were spoilt for choice. YM tested the Bavaria Ocean 38 (£105k) and its comparators were Moody 36 (£106k), Forgus 37 (£102k) and HR 36 (£128k). Any of those would be ideal for your job - and the Bavaria outsold the lot of them in that period (50 boats in the UK alone in 1999). So, not sold at bargain basement prices, but on merit.

The success of Bavaria is in providing boats that suit their owner's needs at a price they can afford - which is why I was able to afford to buy one. Westerly's failing (along with many others) was not doing that, but trying to charge too much for outdated mediocre (for the time) products.

Have a look at the ARC entry lists - you will find the number of Bavarias (and Bennys, Jennys etc) increasing every year. A number of Bavarias charter in the summer in the Med, cross the Atlantic for the winter season and back to the Med for the summer.

With regard to keels - many deep high aspect ratio keels flex. Many UK built "quality" boats have keels that flex, and even break away. You might remember that one of Westerly's many bankruptcies was partly caused by high warranty costs on 150 of one of their popular models for - guess what? defective keels!

As Baggywrinkle points out, his boat is 13 years old, like mine has had a hard charter life in an area where rock bashing is common, and his keel, like mine is still there. No sign of deformation, delamination, leaks etc. Whatever the specific problem is with the new 32, keels are generally a non issue. Bavaria have built more than 15000 boats since 2000, so if there was a real problem it would be public.

Yes, Bavs were imported from the 1980s and sold at similar prices to Swedish boats, so sold few in the UK. Their change in strategy came about because the French were already there - undercutting the old fashioned UK boats and offering what people wanted. They figured (correctly) that if they did not follow they would not survive. You also need to remember that the UK is only a minor market for the big operators who have to think on a global scale.

 

[trapezeartist]

The older Bavs followed the same line of thinking as just about every other boatbuilder of the time: throw hours and hours of expensive labour at the job in the hope of extracting a quality job. The new Bavs take a motor industry approach and achieve quality by being highly tooled and everything is as it comes off the tool, without the need for expesive fettling and finishing.

I don't understand where the knockers get the idea that Bavs are lightly built. They probably heard it from a bloke down the pub who knew someone whose second cousin said that ...... you get the idea. Like for like, Bavarias are not at all light, and once you have taken off all the clutter that is the same on any boat, that weight is in the structure. Which is why they readily take the bashing that we dish out to them. As for penny-pinching, if that were the case, Bavaria wouldn't be putting kevlar into the bow to improve penetration resistance. How many other boats of any price have that?

My conclusion: Bavarias are not perfect. They're just very good, and very good value.

 

[Whitelighter]

very wrong. when introduced they were half the price of a decent boat and ver down market. if anything', they are better now

That simply isnt true.

When Bavaria were owned by the orgininators of the company they were a high price, high quality boat. The Ocean range of centre cockpit yachts especially so - during the 90's these retailed for more than the equivelent Moody.

It was the early 2000's when they were bought by a succession of investment companies that things went down hill with costs cuttting and boats built to a very low price.

The new Visision 46 seems to be a statement as to where Bavaria want to go now which is to improve quality again (but perhaps not yet to mid 90's levels).

 

[charles_reed]

The key dates are late 1990s and 2007/8. Earlier boats were indeed considered at the upper end of the market - think Moody. Around 1998 they started to ramp up volume by moving to J&J for designs and introducing mass production. The early J&J designs were lower volume production, such as Ocean range and the Holiday/Exclusive named boats, with the former aimed at the charter market. in the early 2000s the construction was simplified, but continued the style of the earlier boats. For example, my 2001 37 is superficially the same as the earlier 35, but side by side you can see where the economies have been made. Increased efficiencies, simpler construction and the strong value of £ led to a near 30% reduction in UK prices over that period - hence the popularity.

The theme through the 2000's was even slicker production and increases in hull volume for a given length. Some would argue that not all these changes were improvements and some were definite backwards step, particularly in the quality of fitout in some models. However, this was the period of maximum sales volume so can't be all wrong!

The next big change was the introduction of the Farr/BMW designed boats starting with the 32 and 55, and now covering the whole range. The emphasis on these new designs is on sharper performance and "modern", minimalist interiors - following the fashion started by some of their competitors.

Appearances are deceptive. Generally the boats stand up well to hard use as you will see from their success in the charter market. Most of the equipment used is from major manufacturers. The design and construction is simple and they are mostly easy to maintain. Not everybody is happy with the gloomy interiors of the earlier models, but based on my experience of owning one since new and giving it a hard life chartering it can still look good.

So, if you are looking for a simple, uncomplicated boat for family cruising, put it on your list. If you want sharp sailing performance or high quality hand finish, give it a miss.

though not a Bavaria owner but having worked on them, I'd agree with your analysis.
as to performance - it has to do with how well you can sail, though in a seaway,
as with all light, form-stable boats
they're not good to windward

 

[Bobc]

You are indeed correct Tranona.

Having been to the factory and seen how they do it (and being an Design Engineer by trade), I can tell you they Bavs are probably better engineered than pretty-much anything else I've seen. For example, when laying-up the hulls, rather than just throwing loads of heavy chopstrand and resin at it to make it thick and heavy, they work from a set of laminating drawings for each layer, which defines what type of cloth is used, and the orientation and position of the cloth. It's a well thought-out process which ensures they get maximum strength without using excess materials and labour. The deck router is a thing of beauty. They wheel the complete deck mould into the cubicle, and in 45 minutes, the router drills every hole for every fitting, and cuts every hole for hatches, windows, etc. (doing this manually would take 2 men a couple of days, and even then there would be some "gemmy-ing required afterwards". all millimeter perfect, so that everything from then-on is just a simple assembly task for the fitters. It's the same for the joinery shop, where the interior is CNC routed from sheets, UV treated, sanded, and varnished by machines. No manual sanding, varnishing etc. It takes 2 men about 1/2 a day to make ALL the woodwork for a boat (cut, varnished, routed, drilled, and ready for fitting). Doing this the old fashioned way would take 2 men about a month. The the boats travel down a production line (hull on the left of the gantry, deck on the right), and each station has a specific task.

These boats are not "cheaply built", they are "built cheaply" by using good engineering and modern manufacturing.

 

[WayneS]

As a Bav33 owner, having bought new in 2006, I can confidently say that there is a great deal of tosh sprouted on here.

Armchair critics get my goat.

in the 7 years of ownership I have not experienced the issues that most have seen on daysails.

Get over yourselves, I moved from a MAB and have never looked back

 

[Tranona]

It was the early 2000's when they were bought by a succession of investment companies that things went down hill with costs cuttting and boats built to a very low price.

That is not quite correct. It was the original owners that went for the mass production strategy - and then sold out at the top of the market.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

There are two definitions of quality. The first which is the one I am most used to having worked in manufacturing industry is " is the end product exactly what we specified it would be?" . The second is " is it specified to the highest standard we can get or to a lower standard?"

Being ex manufacturing I am confident that a well mechanised process willl always give better quality by the first definition than any hand crafting . Machines dont make mistakes. They dont have bad days and good days. They dont get pi55ed off with the supervisor. So in that sense I have no doubt that the quality of boats from Benny or Bav will be better than they were in the old Westerly days. Sure there will be exceptions - Benny resin problem for example. But the overwhelming majority of Bennies or Bavs will be exactly what the maker decided to make.

The second question is a different matter and in this area I do think that Bavs are down market. For a start there is the excessive freeboard. Theres the light ballast,. Theres the less attractive interior fit out. There's the standardisation. Its in this sense of quality that you see the Swedish boats and makers like Southerly as being superior. Are Bavs now well made - yes. Are they built to a superior spec - no.

But then as posters have already pointed out, Bavs are cheap and get a lot more people afloat. Nothing wrong with that even if it does leave some owners like Wayne above with a bit of a chip on the shoulder.

 

[Tranona]

The second question is a different matter and in this area I do think that Bavs are down market. For a start there is the excessive freeboard. Theres the light ballast,. Theres the less attractive interior fit out. There's the standardisation. Its in this sense of quality that you see the Swedish boats and makers like Southerly as being superior. Are Bavs now well made - yes. Are they built to a superior spec - no.

Again that is not necessarily the case. Many modern boats, (including the much vaunted Swedish ones) have high freeboard and lower ballast ratios. That is the design trend. Have you measured the freeboard of a Southerly? - at one time they moulded a step in the topsides to help boarding. Have a look in a new HR and note that it is all now machine made in the smaller sizes. Why? - the answer is quite simple, they could not afford to compete if they continued their old working practices and stuck to old designs. Latest models have deep high aspect keels, spade rudders, long waterline lengths, wide sterns etc in fact all the "sins" the mass market producers commit!

All builders are having to adjust to a changed market. Most of the old guard have either gone out of business or substantially downsized to reflect lower demand. Of course you can see a difference in the more expensive brands - but not necessarily significant enough to justify the prices they try and charge.

Can never understand the term "down market" in the way it is used in this context as if it somehow suggests a product is inferior. It is not, it is a product built to meet the needs of its market which in this case is a mass market. Other builders aim at a different market so to justify the higher price they have to somehow differentiate their products. Buyers make their decisions based on what they think meets their needs within the budget they have. Successful builders are those that recognise and meet those needs.

 

[Bobc]

My 50ft Bav has lower freeboard than a Southerly 38, so if we're talking floating caravans...

 

[DuncanHall]

The real test is the residual value. A 98 Moody 36 on the market for near to£90k whereas the Brav is less than £50k.

 

[NealB]

The real test is the residual value. A 98 Moody 36 on the market for near to£90k whereas the Brav is less than £50k.

Not sure what you mean by the 'real' test?

These values, in part at least, reflect the market's perceptions.

So you seem to be taking us right back to my OP, where I asked if those perceptions are valid?

If not, then the Bavaria looks like good value as a secondhand buy.

 

[photodog]

The real test is the residual value. A 98 Moody 36 on the market for near to£90k whereas the Brav is less than £50k.

What percentage value did both boats lose?

 

[Baggywrinkle]

The real test is the residual value. A 98 Moody 36 on the market for near to£90k whereas the Brav is less than £50k.

A Moody 36 CC like this

http://www.yachtworld.de/Boote/1998/Moody-36CC-2389976/country.großbritannien#.UcNpWpzhdgo

... only thing Bavaria did that is equivalent is the Bavaria 38 Ocean, also centre cockpit.

http://www.yachtworld.de/Boote/1998/Bavaria-38-Ocean-2417673/country.italien#.UcNpypzhdgo

Not much difference IMHO.

 

[photodog]

A Moody 36 CC like this

http://www.yachtworld.de/Boote/1998/Moody-36CC-2389976/country.großbritannien#.UcNpWpzhdgo

... only thing Bavaria did that is equivalent is the Bavaria 38 Ocean, also centre cockpit.

http://www.yachtworld.de/Boote/1998/Bavaria-38-Ocean-2417673/country.italien#.UcNpypzhdgo

Not much difference IMHO.

Whats nice about the 38 ocean, is that all the gear used in those boats... The doors, the electrics, the hatches, windows, mast, boom, steering gear, Even the upholstery.... Is exactly the same as on our simluar vintage 31...