What's the RYA's response to British boats being BANNED from Belgium?

[binch]

Belgium bound

I understand the present situation developed because marina owners refused to install a second pump.
The government listen to the marinas body more readily than to the RYA which latter is Pas serieux
The DBA, whose members are in and out of Belgium 12/12 like a piston, seem to have reached a modus vivendi.
If going to Belgium, I'd go over with a near empty tank, aand then fill with white diesel in Dunkerque en route. Produce the receipt with your pale pink diesel.
Experience shows that most Belgian plods will wear this for British yachts. (The Flemings are worse than the walloons)
Those I feel sorry for are the decent Belgian yachties who visit UK and cannot get white diesel for their return journey. They get clobbered.
The way to make HMG pay attention is to point out the effect this will have on continental yotties visiting the olympics.

 

[VO5]

Just to add a different angle to the whole thing.
- Over the years, there have been five (5!!) Brit boats fined in Belgium for having red diesel in their tanks. Red diesel was never the sole reason why they were fined.
- Douanes do check Belgian boats they 'suspect' of having been to the UK as a matter of course. The number of fines issued is way larger than 5. The Dutch do the same in their waters.
This effectively bans Belgian and Dutch boats from visiting the UK. Can't remember seeing more than a handful of BE & NL flagged yachts visiting the East Coast last year.
Ramsgate - which usually sees a fair number of them visiting each year - reports visitor numbers from these countries are down.

When we were in Ostend last Summer, the place was packed to the rafters with Dutch, German and French boats. Only spotted one Brit. Do you think he would be missed if he too didn't come?
Let's face it, the Belgian coast is an extremely unattractive cruising ground and most of the Brits stopped coming once the UK started confiscating duty free fags and booze bought in Belgium.

+1

I most heartily endorse your viewpoint.
Ostende is tacky anyway, really naff.
Niewport is a military harbour (or was ?).
Antwerp is equally bizarre. Speak in English - you get a reply in French.
Speak in French - you get a resentful silence.
Ask if you are understood - the reply is invairably affirmative, with an emphatic nod of the head..
Ask why you don't get a reply in French - you are told French is perfectly understood but they prefer not to speak it
To say the coastline is unattractive is an understatement.
Therefore, all in all, best avoided.

 

[Tidewaiter2]

Remember the old ...

.... Legion Etrange' marching song;
'Tiens, Voila la boudoin,.... il y rien vas plus pour les Belge.'

Now, leaving out the fact that this song had another agenda/meaning than merely discussing the sharing out of a sausage, this view of the Belgians as not everyone in Europe's favourite nation obviously goes back a fair bit, and exists in an outfit which was/is a bit of a sump for humanity itself.

Why therefore are we surprised, that they are as they are?

 

[Bosun Higgs]

When this matter first came to a head, the RYA's membership lobbied it from both sides. There is a large green and environmental lobby within the RYA, as you would expect. For them, more expensive fuel would reduce consumption andf benefit the environment and climate..

James - I'm sure this is what you have been told by the RYA but I can't believe there is any greater representation of eco freaks in the RYA than anywhere else. There is no reason for there to be a large proportion of them in the RYA. And if there were a large proportion , how come all the effort that the RYA put into getting the 60/40 split.

 

[sailorman]

Dear Mr Sailorman

Thank you for your email about the current thread on YBW concerning the use of red diesel in Belgium which has been sent to me for reply.

It would appear to me that as the thread has progressed, the facts of the matter have begun to emerge, however, it might be worthwhile for me to restate the information that is available on the RYA website.

The RYA has made the recreational boating case in the strongest terms and is working hard with HMRC (the appropriate UK Government department) and the Directorate for taxation and customs (the appropriate EU Commission department) and other organisations to resolve the issue as we fully understand the consequences for our members.

There are two principal elements to the issue of red diesel and EU law: firstly, whether the continued availability of marked diesel in the UK for use in private pleasure craft complies with the EU Energy Products Directive and the EU Marking Directive and, secondly, whether it is lawful for member states to penalise individual yachtsmen for having marked diesel in their yachts’ fuel tanks.

On the first element, we have sought specialist taxation law advice and we have been advised that the continued availability of marked diesel in the UK for use in private pleasure craft does not infringe either the EU Energy Products Directive or the EU Marking Directive. The specific issue relating to the EU Marking Directive (on the fiscal marking of gas oils and kerosene) turns on Article 3 of that Directive, which provides that “Member States shall take the necessary steps to ensure that improper use of the marked products is avoided”. Article 3 goes on to suggest that the use of marked fuel for “combustion in the engine of a road-going motor vehicle” is to be regarded as “improper use” but no mention is made of use in private pleasure craft.

The key question is therefore whether the use of duty-paid marked diesel for propelling private pleasure craft amounts to “improper use” for the purposes of the Directive. The UK Government with whom the RYA is dealing (and the Irish Government for that matter) supports our interpretation that the use of duty-paid marked diesel for propelling private pleasure craft does not amount to “improper use” (and there is no jurisprudence to the contrary) whereas the Belgian Government takes the view that it does.

Ultimately, the interpretation of EU Directives is the responsibility of the European Court of Justice, not the Commission or the RYA. As such, the only way in which this question can be answered conclusively is for the matter to be referred to the European Court of Justice. The European Commission has taken the first steps towards such a referral by indicating that it intends to take infraction proceedings against the UK.

(In the meantime, the RYA has recently received confirmation from the Dutch authorities that they accept that private pleasure craft might legitimately have marked ‘red’ diesel in their main fuel tanks and they will not fine boaters provided that proof of purchase and duty payment can be produced. This is consistent with the letter we received from the European Commission in September 2008.)

On the second element, the Belgian Government made it illegal to use marked diesel in private pleasure craft in Belgian waters shortly after the Belgian derogation from the Energy Products Directive expired in December 2006. However, there are a number of circumstances under EU law (including the Energy Products Directive itself) and international law (such as the 1990 Istanbul Convention on Temporary Admission) in which the main fuel tanks of a private pleasure craft navigating in Community waters might legitimately contain marked diesel. We have again sought specialist legal advice and we have been advised that the penalisation of individual yachtsmen for the mere presence of marked fuel in the fuel tanks of a pleasure craft is contrary to the basic principles of EU law. This advice is consistent with the letter from the European Commission available on our website.

The RYA continues to lobby the European Commission and the Belgian Finance Ministry, both directly and through the European Boating Association. We are also working with colleagues in the Royal Belgian Yachting Federation, who are similarly lobbying their Government (the Belgian authorities are penalising Belgian yachtsmen who take on marked diesel perfectly legitimately outside the EU, such as in the US, the Channel Islands or Norway). We are working with the UK Government to explore ways in which the Belgian Government might be persuaded not to penalise UK yachtsmen visiting Belgium for the mere presence of marked diesel in their yachts’ fuel tanks.

I hope that this has helped to inform you of the facts of this issue and the work that the RYA is doing to find a resolution. If you have any further questions please do not hesitate to get in contact.

Regards

Stuart Carruthers
RYA Cruising Manager
Royal Yachting Association
T: 02380 604230 | M: 07909992382 | E: stuart.carruthers@rya.org.uk

 

[grumpy_o_g]

I am amazed that the RYA saw fit to campaign for fuel subsidies for a leisure activity in the first place. The 60/40 tax split is a ludicrous system, and is bizarre in so far as I know of several boats that have no heating system fitted who benefit from the arrangement. Whilst i use my own heater occasionally, in no way does it equate to anything like the 60/40 split.

They aren't "benefitting" from the arrangement - a boat that has no heating fitted and is claiming a 60/40 split is committing fraud or tax evasion or some such (unless they have a generator or something else to use that 40%). I know a diesel rib in the Solent that always fills up at 100% because all his fuel is used for motive power. As he says, the last thing he wants to do is spoil it for everyone else by taking the P out of the revenue.

 

[Twister_Ken]

What Carruthers doesn't say, and should is:

"In the meantime, we strongly advise any leisure boater with red diesel in their tanks not to go into Belgian waters."

 

[timbartlett]

James - I'm sure this is what you have been told by the RYA but I can't believe there is any greater representation of eco freaks in the RYA than anywhere else. There is no reason for there to be a large proportion of them in the RYA. And if there were a large proportion , how come all the effort that the RYA put into getting the 60/40 split.

Here are snippets from the first few posts in just one of many similar threads on this forum. The figure quoted by the RYA was, apparently 5% of their members in favour of increased duty on fuel. My recollection at the time was that I was surprised it was only 5%: it must have been a very vocal 5%.

In the RYA online questionnaire, I replied that I did not object to increases in the price of red diesel.

I got an apparently individual replay by e-mail from the RYA saying that I was very much in the minority (only 5% or repsondents supported higher prices) and stating that we already pay dtuy and VAT on red. Stupid girl, I knew that already. The tone and content of her reply illustrated how blinkered the RYA is.

The text of my reply is pasted in below.

---------

My reason for believing that red diesel should be more expensive is ... ...I trust the RYA will make clear in its submission that there were respondents to its consultation exercise that did not object to price increases in red diesel.

...I personally would not be unhappy at paying reasonable duties ...

I am with you on this, this pollution caused by diesels is in many ways much worse than from petrol. I see no reason why recreational boat users should not be taxed on fuel at the same rate as road users. Obviously those people with motor boats will suffer much more than us yachties from the price rise but I feel that they have to accept that as part of the cost of such gas guzzling machines that they have chosen to use. The increased cost wil be pretty insignificant on the 60 litres a year that I use.

Me too....

I agree exactly with what you say, but have not been brave enough to say it here. I also find the fuel consumption of large power boats barely believable. ...

I can't really see anyone putting forward a logical counterpoint. I have some sympathy with the argument that the increases should be phased, although I'm not sure that the 200 L/Nm guys would even notice the increase....

 

[Seven Spades]

.... there is little, morally, to justify the retention of red diesel.

I couldn't disagree more strongly about this statement.

There is no reason what yachtsmen should pay road fuel tax because that is what it is. We are not using the road so should not contribute towards its upkeep. Secondly it is simply not right to select one small group of society and select them for extra contributions to the exchequer, they are paying for fuel with taxed money, otherwise you could introduce arbitrary taxes on access to beaches or dog ownership or a tax on blondes. As far as I know owning a motor yacht is still legal in the EU and whilst they use a lot of fuel(when used and not tied up at the dock which is what they are for most of their lives) it was not the reason why this tax was imposed, it was imposed because the Labour though right Yachtsmen were getting away with out paying tax so they did not object to the derogation's removal, all they had to do was ask. If the government wants to reduce the amount of diesel fuel that motor boats restrict their power to 50bhp.

You may say that my suggestions are daft but I say they are as logical as making boats pay road fuel tax.

 

[ianj99]

I couldn't disagree more strongly about this statement.

There is no reason what yachtsmen should pay road fuel tax because that is what it is.

Its only we the 'public' that actually pay the duty and vat because we are 'easy targets' since we don't stand united.

Agriculturalists, bus operators, trains & aircraft operators, and commercial vessels pay neither vat, NOR duty.
As for road fuel, the duty increases are often justified on environmental grounds as if none of the above cause pollution....

 

[GlennG]

Dear Mr Sailorman

Thank you for your email about the current thread on YBW concerning the use of red diesel in Belgium which has been sent to me for reply.

.... snip

Stuart Carruthers

So, I go to Belgium. Belgian customs officer sees my red flag, asks to see papers (as is normal for pretty much every visit to Oostende), then asks to see my engine/tanks/whatever. I know he has a right to inspect the boat.

He then sees the red/pink stained filter and decides to fine me.

Then what? Do please let us know.

 

[sailorman]

So, I go to Belgium. Belgian customs officer sees my red flag, asks to see papers (as is normal for pretty much every visit to Oostende), then asks to see my engine/tanks/whatever. I know he has a right to inspect the boat.

He then sees the red/pink stained filter and decides to fine me.

Then what? Do please let us know.

Ask the chap, what would he do.
we offer fine coffee or tea

 

[Tranona]

So, I go to Belgium. Belgian customs officer sees my red flag, asks to see papers (as is normal for pretty much every visit to Oostende), then asks to see my engine/tanks/whatever. I know he has a right to inspect the boat.

He then sees the red/pink stained filter and decides to fine me.

Then what? Do please let us know.

You already know the answer to that. You may be fined, or you may not depending on the attitude of the individual officer. If he decides to fine you he is following the instructions from his government. If he chooses not to that is his problem.

So, you go there and find out, or you stay away and it is irrelevant.

No doubt if the official position changes that information will be well publicised.

 

[ukmctc]

If heading over use ordinary diesel, whats the problem?
If you don't you may get fined, thats the chance you take and its your choice.
Geez, get over it! their country their rules if you want to visit then play by their rules its not difficult.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

- Over the years, there have been five (5!!) Brit boats fined in Belgium for having red diesel in their tanks. Red diesel was never the sole reason why they were fined.

Let's face it, the Belgian coast is an extremely unattractive cruising ground and most of the Brits stopped coming once the UK started confiscating duty free fags and booze bought in Belgium.

Nail struck square on the head IMHO.

 

[sailorman]

Nail struck square on the head IMHO.

BUT they do have superb bier's & food & Oostende is a great town for a few days

 

[maby]

If heading over use ordinary diesel, whats the problem?
If you don't you may get fined, thats the chance you take and its your choice.
Geez, get over it! their country their rules if you want to visit then play by their rules its not difficult.

Great theory, but the nature of the dye is that they can tell if you've had marked diesel in the tank any time in the last year, possibly more, and have made it clear that they will fine you for any detectable hint of marking.

And, lets get it clear - the fault is not with our government, it's with our marinas. The government is not doing anything to force us to use fuel that is illegal in the rest of Europe. When the rules changed and it became illegal for us to use tax-free, marked diesel, the marinas were reluctant to change and the UK government agreed to turn a blind eye to our continuing use of marked fuel provided we paid the tax on it as if it were unmarked road fuel.

This is stretching the EU rules to breaking point and will probably eventually be banned by the commission. Since there are marine users who can legally purchase marked fuel, the government cannot simply force marinas and ports to stop selling marked diesel and they cannot force them to install extra tanks to sell unmarked fuel either. The marinas are private businesses - they have to obey the law, but they are perfectly at liberty to not stock the thing that we want to buy. The only action that the government can take (apart from continuing to try to convince the commission that their current sleight of hand is legal) would be to enforce the EU rules strictly - in which case we could find ourselves unable to buy fuel even for coastal sailing within UK waters. Stop criticising the wrong target and start lobbying marinas to clean out their tanks and switch to unmarked fuel.

 

[mcframe]

What we need to do is get the good burghers of Belgistan bitching as well....

If all else fails land a expeditionairy force in Oostende, seize all the port facilites and best nosh houses.

the latter would be more realistic, could we rely on a Commonwealth Force

Wot?

Send in some Kiwi barmen and Aussie book-keepers?

 

[Tidewaiter2]

Do you remember...

BUT they do have superb bier's & food & Oostende is a great town for a few days

.... the scene right at the end of All Quiet on the Western Front, where the very last of the squad of young lads who were conscripted together, reaches out his hand towards the beautiful butterfly fluttering just outside the parapet or parados and ......blat?

Right, message received in re visiting les Belges until this matter is resolved, probably by an Ulhan invasion*???

*and this time there will be no Naval Division Rolls Royce armoured cars to chase them away, as they will be using red diesel

 

[GlennG]

BUT they do have superb bier's & food & Oostende is a great town for a few days

I'd much rather the excellent Belgian cuisine and beer in Oostende over Ramsgate's greasy kebab and pint of Carlingberg. OK, don't drink the Stella - all Belgians know it's the worst beer in Belgium.

In all seriousness, Oostende -- which is known as being a tacky town in Belgium -- is still nicer than most port towns on the UK south coast - Ramsgate, Dover, Eastbourne, Newhaven...