What's the RYA's response to British boats being BANNED from Belgium?

[GlennG]

All you are doing by taking this stance is displaying your complete ignorance as to what has been going on. There is a constant stream of information coming from both the RYA and the government on their efforts to resolve this issue, both with the Belgian government and the EU commission.

Yep, hence this post.

However, ignorance is two-sided. Ignorance on my part by not doing my research, or ignorance as in I can't get access to the information.

Jame's excellent post is very enlightening.

I'm still stuck with planning my May trip to Belgium though. Being criminalised as a result of government intransigence (bloody-minded dogmatism is a Belgian national sport - they've only just got their government back after a row over language) isn't appealing and can have massive personal consequences.

 

[Elemental]

The RYA is working very hard with the British government to pursuade the Belgian government to conform to EU rules concerning agreed terms under which British boats can use red diesel. This is one of the chief items on the agenda of the Legal and Government departments of the organisation. The RYA has also dealt directly with the Belgians and through the European Boating Association, for which it acts as the secretariat.

However, although the RYA works as hard as it is able on behalf of all its members to get the British Government and EU to enforce the regulations as the currently exist, it is in a bit of a dilemma. When this matter first came to a head, the RYA's membership lobbied it from both sides. There is a large green and environmental lobby within the RYA, as you would expect. For them, more expensive fuel would reduce consumption andf benefit the environment and climate.

While admitting that there are administrative and logistical difficulties in removing the right of yachtsmen to use red diesel in remoter parts of the country, and that there might be repercussions on our very lucrative and successful powerboat building industry, there is little, morally, to justify the retention of red diesel.

I am amazed that the RYA saw fit to campaign for fuel subsidies for a leisure activity in the first place. The 60/40 tax split is a ludicrous system, and is bizarre in so far as I know of several boats that have no heating system fitted who benefit from the arrangement. Whilst i use my own heater occasionally, in no way does it equate to anything like the 60/40 split.

By far the best option (IMNSHO), would be to prohibit the sale of red diesel from all but a few 'bonded' sites which would be allowed to sell marked fuel to license holders and sell white diesel everywhere else. Bona-fide business users would then have a choice, travel to a red pump or buy unmarked fuel and reclaim the tax as a business expense.

 

[Tranona]

Yep, hence this post.

However, ignorance is two-sided. Ignorance on my part by not doing my research, or ignorance as in I can't get access to the information.

Jame's excellent post is very enlightening.

I'm still stuck with planning my May trip to Belgium though. Being criminalised as a result of government intransigence (a Belgian national sport) isn't appealing and can have massive personal consequences.

If you are a member of the RYA then you will have have updates in every magazine and there is plenty on the website under Red Diesel, as well as being covered in all the yottie magazines.

Lighten up. It is not the end of the world, and you as an individual can do nothing to change what is going on.

If you really feel so strongly about it lobby the Belgian government as it is they who are out of line with everybody else (not that they are necessarily wrong - that is not decided yet).

 

[Blueboatman]

" Boycott Belgian Beer "
Has a certain ring to it? Stuff seems to cost as much as Red diesel anyway. Shame it is more tasty

 

[timbartlett]

Yep, hence this post.

However, ignorance is two-sided. Ignorance on my part by not doing my research, or ignorance as in I can't get access to the information.

(1) Go to the RYA Home page http://www.rya.org.uk/Pages/Home.aspx
(2) Wait for the "Cruising" tab to be highlighted (or click on the "Cruising" tab)
(3) Click on "Red diesel" link http://www.rya.org.uk/cruising/current-issues/Pages/RedDieselagameoftwohalves.aspx
(4) Click on "read more" http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/currentaffairs/Pages/BelgianauthoritiesfiningofUKboaters.aspx
or "confirmation from the Dutch authorities"http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/boatingabroad/Pages/reddieselabroad.aspx
or "letter" http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectio...ating Abroad/EUCommLetterandTrans30Sept08.pdf
or "Current Affairs"http://www.rya.org.uk/go/currentaffairs which itself has links to
"EC enforcement proceedings against the UK" http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/currentaffairs/Pages/EUinfringementproceedingsagainsttheuk.aspx
and "Belgian Authorities fining of UK boaters" http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/currentaffairs/Pages/BelgianauthoritiesfiningofUKboaters.aspx

 

[timbartlett]

I am amazed that the RYA saw fit to campaign for fuel subsidies for a leisure activity in the first place. The 60/40 tax split is a ludicrous system, and is bizarre in so far as I know of several boats that have no heating system fitted who benefit from the arrangement. Whilst i use my own heater occasionally, in no way does it equate to anything like the 60/40 split.

That is a pretty massive oversimplification in many ways.
First and biggest is that leisure fuel has never been "subsidised": it has always been taxed, albeit at a lower rate than fuel intended for use in road vehicles.

The purpose of the original EU directive was primarily to minimise the opportunities for some countries (Belgium was one of them, IIRC) to depriving their neighbours of tax revenue by charging very low rates of duty on road fuel, thus enticing users to cross the boarder to buy fuel, by setting a minimum rate of tax on fuel.
But the UK has historically had grossly inflated rates of duty on road fuel.
The RYA BMIF and others were able to show that imposing such inflated rates of duty on marine fuels would have had an adverse effect on the tax take and a disastrous effect on the marine industry, so HMRC was persuaded to apply for a derogation (exemption) from the EC directive.

When our European neighbours refused to renew the derogation, HMRC was persuaded to adopt the 60/40 rule. For sure this may overstate the amount of fuel used by some people for heating and lighting, but it understates it for others: as an average, it is probably not far adrift. Coincidentally, it also produces a price for marine fuel that is broadly in line with those of our neighbours.

The best solution (IMHO) would be for the UK to reduce its duty on Road fuel to EU norms, to use unmarked fuel for everything, and refund over payments of duty made by commercial users --- but somehow I don't see our moneygrubbers going along with that idea

 

[dhobyb]

The RYA is working very hard with the British government to pursuade the Belgian government to conform to EU rules concerning agreed terms under which British boats can use red diesel. This is one of the chief items on the agenda of the Legal and Government departments of the organisation. The RYA has also dealt directly with the Belgians and through the European Boating Association, for which it acts as the secretariat.

However, although the RYA works as hard as it is able on behalf of all its members to get the British Government and EU to enforce the regulations as the currently exist, it is in a bit of a dilemma. When this matter first came to a head, the RYA's membership lobbied it from both sides. There is a large green and environmental lobby within the RYA, as you would expect. For them, more expensive fuel would reduce consumption andf benefit the environment and climate.

While admitting that there are administrative and logistical difficulties in removing the right of yachtsmen to use red diesel in remoter parts of the country, and that there might be repercussions on our very lucrative and successful powerboat building industry, there is little, morally, to justify the retention of red diesel.

Thats all very well, but the RYA is a club, members pay an annual subscription for the RYA to act in its members best interests, if there are employees within the RYA who want the cost of Fuel to members to increase then they are clearly NOT acting in the best interest, they are using members money to pursue an agenda of there own, if this is the case then I for one will be reviewing my membership.

 

[sailorman]

I am amazed that the RYA saw fit to campaign for fuel subsidies for a leisure activity in the first place. The 60/40 tax split is a ludicrous system, and is bizarre in so far as I know of several boats that have no heating system fitted who benefit from the arrangement. Whilst i use my own heater occasionally, in no way does it equate to anything like the 60/40 split.

By far the best option (IMNSHO), would be to prohibit the sale of red diesel from all but a few 'bonded' sites which would be allowed to sell marked fuel to license holders and sell white diesel everywhere else. Bona-fide business users would then have a choice, travel to a red pump or buy unmarked fuel and reclaim the tax as a business expense.

you are quite at liberty to have 100% heating if you so desire.
the % is your choice but the 60/40 was devised as a no questions asked compromise.
you as others are missing the point of this thread as it is coloured fuel that is the only issue.

 

[sailorman]

That is a pretty massive oversimplification in many ways.
First and biggest is that leisure fuel has never been "subsidised": it has always been taxed, albeit at a lower rate than fuel intended for use in road vehicles.

The purpose of the original EU directive was primarily to minimise the opportunities for some countries (Belgium was one of them, IIRC) to depriving their neighbours of tax revenue by charging very low rates of duty on road fuel, thus enticing users to cross the boarder to buy fuel, by setting a minimum rate of tax on fuel.
But the UK has historically had grossly inflated rates of duty on road fuel.
The RYA BMIF and others were able to show that imposing such inflated rates of duty on marine fuels would have had an adverse effect on the tax take and a disastrous effect on the marine industry, so HMRC was persuaded to apply for a derogation (exemption) from the EC directive.

When our European neighbours refused to renew the derogation, HMRC was persuaded to adopt the 60/40 rule. For sure this may overstate the amount of fuel used by some people for heating and lighting, but it understates it for others: as an average, it is probably not far adrift. Coincidentally, it also produces a price for marine fuel that is broadly in line with those of our neighbours.

The best solution (IMHO) would be for the UK to reduce its duty on Road fuel to EU norms, to use unmarked fuel for everything, and refund over payments of duty made by commercial users --- but somehow I don't see our moneygrubbers going along with that idea

the answer in 1 thank you Tim

 

[GlennG]

Thats all very well, but the RYA is a club, members pay an annual subscription for the RYA to act in its members best interests...

Really? I thought the RYA sold itself as lobbying for the whole boating fraternity. It's certainly not a club in the conventional sense.

 

[Tranona]

Thats all very well, but the RYA is a club, members pay an annual subscription for the RYA to act in its members best interests, if there are employees within the RYA who want the cost of Fuel to members to increase then they are clearly NOT acting in the best interest, they are using members money to pursue an agenda of there own, if this is the case then I for one will be reviewing my membership.

That is a gross oversimplification of the situation. The RYA and BMF have always been strong supporters, indeed instigators of the present policy, and have persuaded our government that this is in the interests of boaters and the industry - see Tim's explanation above.

However, that does not mean that it is a view that has overwhelming , or even majority support. If you go back to the original debate there were just as many voices against the policy as there were for, but the louder ones belonged to the industry supporters, particularly the BMF reflecting the interests of a minority. Not surprising then that all are still supporting that line against increasing opposition within Europe.

 

[Elemental]

you are quite at liberty to have 100% heating if you so desire.
the % is your choice but the 60/40 was devised as a no questions asked compromise.
you as others are missing the point of this thread as it is coloured fuel that is the only issue.

I understand fully that the issue is the use of coloured fuel, not tax. Not missing the point at all. At the end of my post, I suggest that we should move to a system where (generally) only white fuel is sold with tax being reclaimed by qualifying businesses.

 

[ianj99]

This whole situation is ridiculous. The Belgians are being vexatious.

If I take my laptop into Belgium do I have to pay the vat difference because UK vat is lower than Belgian vat;. No.

If you filled up legally in the UK its not for any EU country to have any right to intervene imho.
They Belgians should address their concerns to the UK government through the EU.

What about duty free alcohol.....
I

 

[jordanbasset]

This is from the E.U. website

Basic information from the European Union website

"The European Union is a unique economic and political partnership between 27 European countries.
It has delivered half a century of peace, stability, and prosperity, helped raise living standards, launched a single European currency, and is progressively building a single Europe-wide market in which people, goods, services, and capital move among Member States as freely as within one country...
Thanks to the abolition of border controls between EU countries, it is now possible for people to travel freely within most of the EU. It has also become much easier to live and work in another EU country"

How does this fit in with Belgium making it difficult to travel just because our diesel is red? Seems to me that one of the advantages of the E.U. was freedom to travel and to get away from silly rules that made it difficult to travel between one country and another, this is not Belgium's finest hour

 

[IanL]

Belgian chocolates

I hope that no-one is even thinking of giving Belgian chocolates on Valentines Day.

 

[Robin]

Just add Belgium to the to be avoided list along with Guernsey. They are both biting the hand that feeds them and if they don't want us just go elsewhere. We could also consider fining Belgian boats for not having red diesel in their tanks when they are in a country that only has red available unless carried from filling stations in cans and transferred (against local regs) in the marina . Oh and no more watching Poirot, that'll teach 'em.

 

[wizard]

I understand fully that the issue is the use of coloured fuel, not tax. Not missing the point at all. At the end of my post, I suggest that we should move to a system where (generally) only white fuel is sold with tax being reclaimed by qualifying businesses.

Wheres Moody Nick?

He posted a little while ago that moves were afoot to bring in white diesel to marinas but still having the chemical tracer in it -just a question of getting all the refineries to act together.

The bio part of road white diesel precludes its use in a lot of marine engines plus the problem of lowered sulphur content for older engines.

 

[Koeketiene]

This is from the E.U. website

Basic information from the European Union website

"The European Union is a unique economic and political partnership between 27 European countries.
It has delivered half a century of peace, stability, and prosperity, helped raise living standards, launched a single European currency, and is progressively building a single Europe-wide market in which people, goods, services, and capital move among Member States as freely as within one country...
Thanks to the abolition of border controls between EU countries, it is now possible for people to travel freely within most of the EU. It has also become much easier to live and work in another EU country"

How does this fit in with Belgium making it difficult to travel just because our diesel is red? Seems to me that one of the advantages of the E.U. was freedom to travel and to get away from silly rules that made it difficult to travel between one country and another, this is not Belgium's finest hour

Maybe Belgium just 'opted out' of the particular bit of EU legislation?
Surely, a stance the UK should be all too familiar with.

 

[Koeketiene]

Just to add a different angle to the whole thing.
- Over the years, there have been five (5!!) Brit boats fined in Belgium for having red diesel in their tanks. Red diesel was never the sole reason why they were fined.
- Douanes do check Belgian boats they 'suspect' of having been to the UK as a matter of course. The number of fines issued is way larger than 5. The Dutch do the same in their waters.
This effectively bans Belgian and Dutch boats from visiting the UK. Can't remember seeing more than a handful of BE & NL flagged yachts visiting the East Coast last year.
Ramsgate - which usually sees a fair number of them visiting each year - reports visitor numbers from these countries are down.

When we were in Ostend last Summer, the place was packed to the rafters with Dutch, German and French boats. Only spotted one Brit. Do you think he would be missed if he too didn't come?
Let's face it, the Belgian coast is an extremely unattractive cruising ground and most of the Brits stopped coming once the UK started confiscating duty free fags and booze bought in Belgium.

 

[Koeketiene]

2) Harrasment action in the UK of Belgistan registered yachts... Random inspections of gas systems..... Strict enforcement of customs clearing and ensign etiquette..... Checks on their fuel to ensure that they have paid correct duty...(Ie... lets see the reciepts..) ... bring in new local collision regs that mean Belgistan yachts give way ALL THE TIME!! Mandatory C of E baptism for all children under 5.

Don't expect a X-Mas card next year.