What's the RYA's response to British boats being BANNED from Belgium?

[GlennG]

I might be a bit thick, but how can anyone not be able to buy white diesel? Every filling station sells it.

Many people use jerry cans to refuel. How much fuel does a Contessa hold? Seems to be 10 or 12 gallons. That's only three cans-full, max..

Yep. And the cleaning out of the tank, pipes and engine? TBH I often use white diesel, but with the existing dye, it's marked.

What about people who have hundreds of litres in their tanks? I don't just sail a Contessa with a 45 litre tank.

I go back to my original point; why is the RYA not screaming from the rooftops about this? I can't think of a single issue in sailing that's more important than being prevented from sailing abroad with our boats.

 

[GlennG]

If that's how you feel about the country, why would you even contemplete going back there? Why not avoid the dreadful place altogether

I'm a sucker for decent beer with moule frite. Or steak tartare. As I said, it knocks our kebab houses into a cocked hat. Even their fritures (chip shops) are better!

 

[Twister_Ken]

I have no great love for the RYA, but it's wrong to blame them. It's the UK government that got us into this mess, and it's the UK government that can get us out. Sell white diesel at maritime facilities, and allow fisherman and other commercial users to claim back whatever their subsidised portion of the duty is, as they do with VAT on gear, etc.

 

[Doug_Stormforce]

I have no great love for the RYA, but it's wrong to blame them. It's the UK government that got us into this mess, and it's the UK government that can get us out. Sell white diesel at maritime facilities, and allow fisherman and other commercial users to claim back whatever their subsidised portion of the duty is, as they do with VAT on gear, etc.

Or you could show some loyalty to your own country and blame the Belgium Government who refuse to recognise a vat receipt as evidence of duty paid on fuel from the UK.

Why do people want to blame the RYA and the UK government, both of whom have worked hard to reach an equitable situation for British boaters despite some ridiculous Euro legislation?

 

[Seven Spades]

Well they should sell white diesel instead of red in our Harbours/Marinas and offer a discount for heating or commercial use. The risk is that someone would fill their boat and syphon it off into jerry cans and then fill up their car with it...Hardly a risk don't you think?

It would solve the problem in one fail swoop, then the only problem would be when visiting the Channel Islands...

 

[Koeketiene]

It would solve the problem in one fail swoop, then the only problem would be when visiting the Channel Islands...

Last time I filled up in the CI (Guernsey) the diesel was white.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

I'll rise to that one (sorry Sailorman )

With the Belgians, it's not the duty paid - it's the fact that you've got dyed / marked diesel in your tanks. - Red normally - same as the type

This presumes that the marker in the fuel indicates that it is tax-free - in fact it clearly doesn't as both the receipt should indicate and the marina's paperwork should show. The red marker dye in UK red diesel no longer indicates anything other than the fact that it MIGHT be tax/duty-free or it might not or might be partially tax/duty-free - i.e. nothing at all as far as tax or duty is concerned. As such the yachtsman is not breaking the law at all as he has no "fuel containing a marker dye to indicate that it is tax/duty-free" in his tanks. The UK government are failing to comply with an EU directive that states something along the lines of "all tax/duty-free fuel shall contain a marker dye indicating this" but that's not the yachtie's problem.

If the RYA wanted to do something they could ask the Belgian authorities exactly what Belgian law is being broken, force a test case, and then either challenge that law as being not in accord with the EU directive or as not being correctly applied to British yachts.

What happens if a Belgian yacht goes to the Channel Islands - surely they're forced to fill up with Red? If you really wanted to create a problem you could raid a few Belgian marinas and add a gallon of Red to the tank of every Belgian-flagged diesel-engined yacht in there.....

 

[timbartlett]

Whenever I read one of these posts about the RYA should force the Government to do something, a little voice at the back of my mind says "How?"

And if it's difficult for the RYA to get the UK government to do something, how much more difficult must it be for them to apply pressure to a foreign government?

Can you imagine the UK Government changing one of its policies because the Fédération Royale Belge du Yachting protested about it?

It's similar to the arguments about Swanage and about why the BCU hasn't managed to achieve free access for canoes to every river in the UK: there seems to be a reluctance to accept that there are other forces opposing our wishes to use red diesel/anchor in Studland Bay/canoe in the River Wey or whatever, and that some of those forces are very powerful.

The fact that the RYA/BCU/IWA has not achieved an immediate and total victory against them does not mean that they aren't trying.

 

[GlennG]

Or you could show some loyalty to your own country and blame the Belgium Government who refuse to recognise a vat receipt as evidence of duty paid on fuel from the UK.

Why do people want to blame the RYA and the UK government, both of whom have worked hard to reach an equitable situation for British boaters despite some ridiculous Euro legislation?

The problem still stands; the Belgians have effectively BANNED UK boats from visiting and there's not a lot heard from the RYA. For example their homepage today makes no mention of this issue:
[IMG=http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/401/ryahomepage13feb2012.jpg]

 

[timbartlett]

The problem still stands; the Belgians have effectively BANNED UK boats from visiting and there's not a lot heard from the RYA. For example their homepage today makes no mention of this issue:
[IMG=http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/401/ryahomepage13feb2012.jpg]

Funny: what's the third item down in the "more articles" list?
Or do you expect one particular issue to take priority over all the other issues that might be of interest to other people, even when it is a slowly-changing situation?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

.... I go back to my original point; why is the RYA not screaming from the rooftops about this? I can't think of a single issue in sailing that's more important than being prevented from sailing abroad with our boats.

You are really being OTT about this. You are not prevented from sailing abroad and are overreacting to the issue. Go sailing abroad and enjoy your boat in foreign waters, no one is stopping you. I suspect that you know this anyway.

 

[sailorman]

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=297531

 

[GlennG]

You are really being OTT about this. You are not prevented from sailing abroad and are overreacting to the issue. Go sailing abroad and enjoy your boat in foreign waters, no one is stopping you. I suspect that you know this anyway.

It's a forum, so debate could appear OTT.

However the point stands; I cannot honestly sail to Belgium in my boat -- or a friends -- without a realistic chance of being fined for doing something that's not illegal in the UK. The Belgians don't need to do much, just target boats flying British flags.

I see this 'storm in a teacup' as being exceedingly important to sailing.

 

[[70521]]

I see this 'storm in a teacup' as being exceedingly important to sailing.

I don't. It has c36 nautical miles of coastline and ranks 143 out of 154 in the list of countries with coasts.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_length_of_coastline

 

[Deleted member 36384]

It's a forum, so debate could appear OTT.

However the point stands; I cannot honestly sail to Belgium in my boat -- or a friends -- without a realistic chance of being fined for doing something that's not illegal in the UK. The Belgians don't need to do much, just target boats flying British flags.

I see this 'storm in a teacup' as being exceedingly important to sailing.

GlennG I do understand your position on not wanting to go to Belgium knowing that you are breaking a law that could get you fined, hence you feel banned from sailing to that country.

My own perception is that the UK will become fully compliant and we will just have to accept that i.e. use unmarked fuel and pay all duty and taxes as leisure boat users. The implications for me are not clear but depending on the final fuel formulation my older engine may not fare well and my 120 gallons of fuel may be more susceptible to bug issues - both will likely cost me more money in the form of a modern engine (maybe not a bad idea) and smaller fuel tanks for coastal cruising.

 

[GlennG]

It would be so useful if leisure marinas, e.g. pretty much all of them on the south and east coasts, would sell white diesel. It makes sense for commercial ports to carry on selling red diesel. The challenge is the 50/50 ports.

But in any case, there's little reason for pure leisure marinas to stock red diesel.

There's an issue with the cost of converting tanks from red to white, but that's a different question.

 

[rickym]

I think some of the harbour stock issues are with the distribution rather than not wanting to stock white diesel

 

[jamesjermain]

The RYA is working very hard with the British government to pursuade the Belgian government to conform to EU rules concerning agreed terms under which British boats can use red diesel. This is one of the chief items on the agenda of the Legal and Government departments of the organisation. The RYA has also dealt directly with the Belgians and through the European Boating Association, for which it acts as the secretariat.

However, although the RYA works as hard as it is able on behalf of all its members to get the British Government and EU to enforce the regulations as the currently exist, it is in a bit of a dilemma. When this matter first came to a head, the RYA's membership lobbied it from both sides. There is a large green and environmental lobby within the RYA, as you would expect. For them, more expensive fuel would reduce consumption andf benefit the environment and climate.

While admitting that there are administrative and logistical difficulties in removing the right of yachtsmen to use red diesel in remoter parts of the country, and that there might be repercussions on our very lucrative and successful powerboat building industry, there is little, morally, to justify the retention of red diesel.

 

[Tranona]

The problem still stands; the Belgians have effectively BANNED UK boats from visiting and there's not a lot heard from the RYA. For example their homepage today makes no mention of this issue:
[IMG=http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/401/ryahomepage13feb2012.jpg]

All you are doing by taking this stance is displaying your complete ignorance as to what has been going on. There is a constant stream of information coming from both the RYA and the government on their efforts to resolve this issue, both with the Belgian government and the EU commission.

 

[sailorman]

The RYA is working very hard with the British government to pursuade the Belgian government to conform to EU rules concerning agreed terms under which British boats can use red diesel. This is one of the chief items on the agenda of the Legal and Government departments of the organisation. The RYA has also dealt directly with the Belgians and through the European Boating Association, for which it acts as the secretariat.

However, although the RYA works as hard as it is able on behalf of all its members to get the British Government and EU to enforce the regulations as the currently exist, it is in a bit of a dilemma. When this matter first came to a head, the RYA's membership lobbied it from both sides. There is a large green and environmental lobby within the RYA, as you would expect. For them, more expensive fuel would reduce consumption andf benefit the environment and climate.

While admitting that there are administrative and logistical difficulties in removing the right of yachtsmen to use red diesel in remoter parts of the country, and that there might be repercussions on our very lucrative and successful powerboat building industry, there is little, morally, to justify the retention of red diesel.

Thank you James
why o why cant the RYA keep its membership informed then.
saying nothing at all does not help.
the red issue is a real threat to us east coasters, even transiting Belgian waters might be an issue.