What's the best route Deben to Ramsgate?

[Colvic Watson]

We'll be leaving the Deben about an hour before low water then I wondered if we should go all the way out to Knock Deep or use the tide more efficiently and use Black Deep/Foulger's Gat or even Barrow Deep.

We passage plan at 6 knots with a favourable tide.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Lucky Duck]

My usual cross estuary route (from Harwich) is Sunk Head Tower -> Foulger Gat -> Ramsgate. If at all possible I aim to be in the Black Deep at Low Water so to avoid the strong North going tide at North Foreland.

 

[Colvic Watson]

Thanks for that - how long after LW Black Deep does the tide turn at North Foreland?

 

[tillergirl]

Mean Springs LW in the Black Deep adjacent to Foulger' Gat is about an hour/65 mins before LW Sheerness; Mean Neap LW is pretty much the same. There is slack water at the North Foreland 3 hour after HW Sheeerness and the south going tide is obviously going by 4 hours after. That's lots of ebb to face to Foulger's.

 

[tillergirl]

Just got the book out. Reckon if you depart from the Haven Buoy at HW Sheerness +4.30 on Springs averaging 6 kts, you will be at Blk Deep/Foulger's at Sheerness - 4.29. Pretty much the most efficient time to do the sector from North Foreland to Ramsgit. 36 mins. In fact that's the best time. 6 hrs to do 40.84nm

Leave the Haven Buoy at LW Sheerness and the tables say Blk Deep/Foulgers at HW Sheerness - 3.29, North Foreland at Sheerness -0.54 and Ramsgit at +0.18. 42 Mins for the final sector. 6 hrs 20 mins to do 40.84nm

Now say you plan to do it on Neaps!!!

 

[Colvic Watson]

Thanks for such detail - from those two replies I think I'm right in deducing that departure Haven anytime between HW Sheerness +4.30 through to LW Sheerness is good?

 

[White Horse]

There is a book

Its very good .. Will give you all the info you need .. Simple to use and gives you all the relevant times between sections .. Its called CROSSING THE THAMES ESTUARY ..

Have a good trip .. Dont forget your charts ..

 

[FullCircle]

Its very good .. Will give you all the info you need .. Simple to use and gives you all the relevant times between sections .. Its called CROSSING THE THAMES ESTUARY ..

Have a good trip .. Dont forget your maps ..

....written by our very own forumite - tillergirl. Take a bow (again) Roger!

 

[tillergirl]

With the caveat that all such calculations are based upon tidal predictions and an assumptions of a regular 6 knts throughout the passage (and not 8 knots boat speed for one sector and 4 for another), the simple answer is yes.

I think there are three tidal issues to think through: ebb or flood down to Long Sand Inner SWM, ebb or flood between Long Sand Outer and North Foreland and ebb or flood from North Foreland to Ramsgate.

As Simon says avoiding the north going tide down the Foreland is a nice thing to do. But in theory at six knots fighting the tide down the Foreland should only double the optimum passage time from 36 mins to 68 mins. I say in theory because in an ancient wooden boat like TG what the sea and wind is doing also comes into play. The difference between passage planning and reality on the day.

So three sectors to consider. Can you get the flood to help all the way? The difficulty is that the north going tide up the Foreland starts 2 hours before HW Sheerness meaning that you only get 5 hours of flood available. You get 5 hours and not 4 because of course the flood starts off the Deben an hour earlier than deeper into the Estuary.

So 5 hours at 6 knots + 30nm. Passage is 40.84nm. By starting at Sheerness -6 off the Deben you start to lose the favourable tide down the Foreland. But its not drastic. Start an hour and a half earlier, you have the dying ebb to face for an hour and a half which obviously makes your 6 knot average tougher to achieve. We are talking 0.6kts springs for half and hour, possibly slightly longer before the flood starts to build.

Taking Simon's suggestion of being in the Black Deep at LW: two possiblities being at the Long Sand Outer at LW or being at Sunk Head at LW.

Taking the time of LW at Long Sand Outer from the Co-Tidal charts suggests LW at the Long Sand Outer is 60/65 mins after Sheerness. Working back through the tables suggests a start time of Sheerness +4 (well +3.54 if you want to be pickkie!) and an arrival time of Sheerness -2.24, i.e. a faster passage time of 5hrs 36 mins. Taking LW at the Sunk Head, departure time is Sheerness +4.45 arriving at -1.24 (or 5hrs 51mins).

From which we may conclude:

1. Let's just ask Simon in future!
2. You have a nice window from Sheerness - 4 to Sheerness -6

Some things to bear in mind though is that the -4 hour start only works if you can keep up a 6 knot average against the dying ebb. The other thing is that if you are late on the -6 start you are working into the risk of the North Foreland bit getting slower.

I suppose the other thing to note is that 6kts is a pretty neat average speed for this passage and that less fortunate mortals who can only average 5 kts will not be able to ride the tidal wave all the way!

You were going on Springs, weren't you?

 

[Colvic Watson]

Thanks - I understand the issues now & planned date of departure is 26th July so time is on our side to get the timing right.

I say 6knots with favourable tide because it's 5 from the boat plus an average 1 from the tide - and on a passage like this i would reluctantly use the engine to ensure the boat does its 5 knots. I have been surprised recently at how strong the dying ebb is out by the Deben safe water mark. Either I have been getting my tide times wrong or it's a lot faster close inshore. Punching a bit of the ebb has a huge effect on our speed - from 6 to 4.5 and that makes a big hole in the calculations.

Time to buy a copy of the book I reckon!

 

[White Horse]

Dogs in Ramsgate Port

Are not welcome . Local byelaw . You can be asked to leave . The Sailing Club don't do food anymore . There is a supermarket within walking distance . Locals are very friendly . One local boat owner took me to the garage to fill cans with diesel . Another posibility is stop at Brightlingsea on the way . Coming back you get 7 hours of tide more than enough .

 

[tillergirl]

Ah, Ah! 5kts boat speed. That's a different kettle of fish. The tables work on boat speed and calculate the time in each sector based on the tide you will face in that sector. I worked it out assuming 6kts boat speed. Without wishing to fall foul of forum advertising rules, the book describes some favourite routes between Kent, Essex and Suffolk; the routes are split into sectors (that saves repetition) and then are tables for each sector setting out the duration of each sector. Because of the way the tables are laid out you can select your start time for a sector and see instantly the time when you leave it. By rolling that leaving time to the start time of the next sector you can see the end of that sector time and so on. It's pretty quick. BY way of a test, lets time me doing this calculation at 5kts springs.

Its 2250 now as I start. 22.52 finish. Departing Haven buoy at Sheerness +4.30 gives you an arrival time at Ramsgate of Sheerness +0.12 or 7hrs 42mins. That's getting some adverse tide down the Foreland.

I totally agree with you about the impact of an adverse tide; it alway has more impact than you expect.

The truth is that at 5 kts boat speed you cannot ride the tidal wave all the way. So the choice is take the hit (the ebb tide) on leaving the Deben or at the North Foreland. So working backwardsfrom the hypothesis that you want a helping tide down the North Foreland, sector times increase from an arrival time of Sheerness - 1. Working back the tables suggest that needs a start time of Sheerness +3.45 - might get away with +4.

To take the hit at the Foreland, leave Haven Buoy at Sheerness +5, the plan says you get to Ramsgate at Sheerness +1.13 - taking you 73 minutes to get from North Foreland to Ramsgate. Kind of tedious and if there is a northerly wind kind of lumpy I would guess which would make you avoid keeping close in to miss the worst of the tide.

And I've found a typo - damn, damn, damn!

As for tide again, I came down from the Deben and was close to Platters when I heard VTS telling an incoming container ship that the tide was running particularly hard out of Harwich and she wasn't kidding - it was huge.

Hope all this helps.

 

[Colvic Watson]

Book on its way from Amazon

 

[tillergirl]

TG's family humbly thanks you.....

Visit the website for the download of some amendments since printing and for a pdf to print off spare ready reckoner tables.

 

[Cantata]

Are not welcome . Local byelaw . You can be asked to leave . The Sailing Club don't do food anymore........

If you have to go into Ramsgate with an animal on board, they won't ask you to leave, they will happily provide a pee/poo escort just so's you don't take Fido/Tigger out of port limits.
Club doesn't do food any more? S'funny, I had an excellent meal there about 10 days ago....I don't think they produce serious food on weekdays but they do lunchtime bar-snacks, plus they do serious meals at weekends, and anyway there are enough eateries in town to keep you fed for weeks.

 

[Colvic Watson]

I don't understand Ramsgate bashing - I rather like it. It's boaty not yachty; It's not too expensive and the loos/showers are great. Most problems are caused by a very high number of visitors on one night stays who leave their rubbish about the place

 

[Lucky Duck]

they won't ask you to leave, they will happily provide a pee/poo escort just so's you don't take Fido/Tigger out of port limits.

That would explain why we were visited by a cat while on board a couple of years back.

Incidentally, does anybody know if the dredging is complete in the western marina and whether there is now a decent depth a LWS?

 

[Koeketiene]

I don't understand Ramsgate bashing - I rather like it. It's boaty not yachty;

We like it too - much prefer it to Dover which is a sh*thole once you leave the marina.
My eldest refers to Ramsgate as 'the fashion capital of the world', though I suspect that's very much a tongue in cheek statement.
Some nice places to eat and a halfway decent beach. Very convenient jump-off point for Belgium and northern France.
We do avoid the local YC, as it seems to be inhabited by people way past their sell by date - long dead, but no-one has to balls to tell them.

 

[Cantata]

.....Incidentally, does anybody know if the dredging is complete in the western marina and whether there is now a decent depth a LWS?

If you go here www.eastcoastpilot.com and click on the Ramsgate item under 'Latest News'....I think you'lll find they've not quite finished yet.

 

[CliveG]

We had to lift our keel to get into a finger berth opposite the fuel barge weekend before last.
They were dredging in the 2nd bay in from the entrance then.