What's A Reasonable Offer?

bumpy_the_dog

bumpy_the_dog

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I'm interested in this 2009 Seaward 25, which is listed at £87,750.

What would be a reasonable offer to make, cash purchase subject to survey?

Thanks.
 
bumpy_the_dog said:
I'm interested in this 2009 Seaward 25, which is listed at £87,750.

What would be a reasonable offer to make, cash purchase subject to survey?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
Offering "cash and subject to survey" does not make any difference to the seller - he will assume you have the money to pay for the boat and a survey is normal - otherwise he won't enter into a contract with you. Only slight advantage is if he has two offers and the other has to put finance into place so he may accept yours rather than the other.

So, do your homework, find out as much as you can about what other similar boats go for, compare the alternatives that you might buy with your money and decide what the new boat is worth to you. That becomes your opening offer.
 
Tranona said:
Offering "cash and subject to survey" does not make any difference to the seller - he will assume you have the money to pay for the boat and a survey is normal - otherwise he won't enter into a contract with you. Only slight advantage is if he has two offers and the other has to put finance into place so he may accept yours rather than the other.

So, do your homework, find out as much as you can about what other similar boats go for, compare the alternatives that you might buy with your money and decide what the new boat is worth to you. That becomes your opening offer.
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The problem is virtually all Seawards less than ten years old get sold through the Seaward brokerage, so price information is a bit asymmetrical, hence my question.
 
What I do know is that the new price of this boat is £115,000 plus £22,000 for the fitted extras. So that's a five year old, lightly used boat that's listed at 64% of the new price with these extras. Is that reasonable in today's market?

Thanks
 
bumpy_the_dog said:
What I do know is that the new price of this boat is £115,000 plus £22,000 for the fitted extras. So that's a five year old, lightly used boat that's listed at 64% of the new price with these extras. Is that reasonable in today's market?

Thanks
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Is that £115k list price, or what they would actually sell you one for?

If you want a (very rough) rule of thumb, people often talk about year 1 depreciation as being the vat, and then subsequent years being 10% pa. So if you applied this crude rule to your five year old example, the residual would be 0.87 * 0.9 * 0.9 * 0.9 * 0.9 = 57%. So your 64% isn't miles out, on that basis.

...

However, this is all a bit irrelevant. As has been repeated on the forum ad infinitum, the value of the boat is the junction of what you want to buy it for and what the seller wants to sell it for. What's it worth to you?
 
bumpy_the_dog said:
What I do know is that the new price of this boat is £115,000 plus £22,000 for the fitted extras. So that's a five year old, lightly used boat that's listed at 64% of the new price with these extras. Is that reasonable in today's market?

Thanks
Click to expand...

I believe the company was sold recently because demand for semi-displacement twin engined Nelson type boats is basically very low, and they had no orders on the books.

£137k for a25' old fashioned design does seem expensive!!! Just for comparison how much is the modern replacement, the Botnia targa 25'?
 
They are great boats, but that does sound top dollar for one of that age. As always, boat condition and extras included plus owners keenness to sell are pertinent. I'd be thinking of an offer of £65 - 70K, you can always go up.
 
Hello chaps, don't often pop in here but noticed the 'what's a reasonable offer?' and was curious to what is deemed reasonable and what is offensive to the seller.....

A mate of mine mentioned recently it's not the purchase price or the sale price that matters, it's the difference between these figures when you exit the boat.

Is this figure worth the enjoyment over x number of years??

I'd imagine if you buy new at the boat show, sit on it twice a year in the marina and then sell it on and then add the fuel, the marina fees etc into the calculations you'll think no.

If the OP buys for £85k sells for £60k in 5 years time and gets a lot of use out of it, I'd say that's a pretty good use of £5k a year.
 
Buying second hand stuff is usually quite straight forward. Look at what similar stuff has sold for and base your bid on that. You can allow for condition, how much you do or don't want that specific one to fine tune your offer.

And then there's the boat market.

New boats sell for somewhere between list price (give or take) and 40% or so off list price. Second hand I agree with Jimmy. A 3 year old boat is worth 70% of new price. Here lies the problem, you haven't got a clue what the actual price new was.

So second hand boats are often advertised for more than you can buy a new one for - sellers kid themselves they paid list price - or rather everyone else did and they got the bargain or the decade when of course everyone got the same deal. Buyers have no idea what what actual values are so lack confidence. Boats take years to sell and eventually sellers have to reduce their asking price by 25-30% which bizarrely it exactly how much over priced the boat was put on the market for.

It's what stops people buying boats and depresses the market.

It all harks back to dealers offering you your money back if you upgrade to a new boat. I buy and sell for a living but can't even begin to understand second hand prices. Ultimately it puts people off buying.

Henry
 
henryf said:
Buying second hand stuff is usually quite straight forward. Look at what similar stuff has sold for and base your bid on that. You can allow for condition, how much you do or don't want that specific one to fine tune your offer.

And then there's the boat market.

New boats sell for somewhere between list price (give or take) and 40% or so off list price. Second hand I agree with Jimmy. A 3 year old boat is worth 70% of new price. Here lies the problem, you haven't got a clue what the actual price new was.

So second hand boats are often advertised for more than you can buy a new one for - sellers kid themselves they paid list price - or rather everyone else did and they got the bargain or the decade when of course everyone got the same deal. Buyers have no idea what what actual values are so lack confidence. Boats take years to sell and eventually sellers have to reduce their asking price by 25-30% which bizarrely it exactly how much over priced the boat was put on the market for.

It's what stops people buying boats and depresses the market.

It all harks back to dealers offering you your money back if you upgrade to a new boat. I buy and sell for a living but can't even begin to understand second hand prices. Ultimately it puts people off buying.

Henry
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Another way to value a boat to do a back of a fag packet calculation:
25' hull moulding £25k
Twin yanmar 115hp £20k
Windows £2k
Instruments £1k
Rudders £2k

....about £50k plus bit to build.
 
Finding myself in the middle of a boat purchase and a house purchase ( on behalf f daughter) I have a view that 90% of asking price is a good pitch point if seller is serious ..there still aren't many buyers around for boats or houses ( unless you are in London).

I tend to try to form a view on what I think is a 'fair' price, which I do research to validate.

If seller is asking silly money then even 90% maybe too much, but then by definition you can find better value in another house or boat.

If seller has already reduced price then I factor this into my calculation.

Just a personal view
 
bumpy_the_dog said:
Sorry, I forgot to post the link in the original post

http://seawardboat.com/index.php/brokerage-2/25-alison-k/

Thanks for the answers, some really useful suggestions there. Putting them together it sounds like an offer of £70k wouldn't be unreasonable.
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Just a question. Why a Seaward 25? It seems an old design, very little space down-forward and seemingly overpriced.

There are dozens of 2008-2010 Antares 8s offered for sale around £60k....... guess some of them can be bought for less than £50k. You'd get more interior space and single engine economy. Smaller cockpit though.
 
If you tried an 'insulting' offer of say below £60k then (NB I have no knowledge of this boat nor its likely resale value) you may be surprised that the owner may not tell you to perhaps rather rudely 'go away'. You can always up the ante, but you can't lower it. You need to achieve the best deal for you, and basically the vendors feelings are not your problem.

Offer to pay the deposit to the deposit holder immediately, subject to a sensible form of contract e.g. RYA standard, and make it clear you are serious.

If he doesn't like your offer he is at liberty not to accept it, but I bet if he sees you as a genuine buyer he will still want to talk with you further, and you have by then made your starting price very clear. And if he doesn't accept it you are under no obligation whatsoever to maintain that offer even if he subsequently says he does accept it - his right to decline your offer is equal IMHO to your right to rescind it if it is refused.

However, I would be very clear that any offer I made was conditional upon it being accepted, so if refused it was effectively cancelled.

Don't be intimidated by a broker either. I have walked away from a purchase at survey when undisclosed and significant defects were discovered and the broker's boss became stroppy (I mean really stroppy swearing across his office and openly insulting me with some fairly hostile language in front of his junior staff) when I attempted to re-negotiate the price based upon the surveyors advice. I imagine I was the biggest time waster he had ever dealt with that day, but convenient for him to ignore the surveyors comments (and he recommended the surveyor !). I left him to explain to the vendor my decision, and I did get my deposit back, but not my surveyors fee nor haul out fee. Because of the brokers attitude the vendor did not get the survey I had paid for.
 
The best thing to do is make the lowest silly price you can think of and watch his reaction, this does need to be with the boat owner not just the brokers. Often if you are wanting to view a boat an owner will want to attend. Ask the broker if the owner will come.
If he considers your offer wait for his reply, he may say, I can't possibly take less than whatever! Or he might say ok!
you then tell him it's all subject to survey. Let's say for example he considers 70k, generally a good surveyor will pull the boat apart and give you ammunition to reduce the price further, when your seller sees what has to be done generally he will take a lower offer! Good luck, I do speak from experience just 3 weeks ago!
 
Hugin said:
Just a question. Why a Seaward 25?
Click to expand...

Most of my sailing has been in raggies, and ex raggies tend to be drawn to different mobos, Hardy or Seaward are often top of their list and I'm no different.

I live a ten minute walk from Lymington Haven and when you're so close to the water it's often more about daysailing than overnighting, plus I also wanted something that can seat six at a table in the cockpit for when friends come out. Therefore I'm looking for the space balance to be more towards the cockpit than the interior.
 
superheat6k said:
If you tried an 'insulting' offer of say below £60k then (NB I have no knowledge of this boat nor its likely resale value) you may be surprised that the owner may not tell you to perhaps rather rudely 'go away'. You can always up the ante, but you can't lower it. You need to achieve the best deal for you, and basically the vendors feelings are not your problem.
Click to expand...
Precisely. Whilst it makes for an interesting thread on the forum, the only way to find the value of this boat is to offer low and go up in small increments until the seller accepts your offer. It is a good idea to tell the broker that you are a serious buyer and have cash waiting but don't take any s**t from the broker about insulting offers. His duty is to pass on all offers to the seller. Having said this, the Seaward 25 is a serious little sea boat and as such, it is worth more than mainstream production 25 footers. In the end of course, it is a matter of how badly you want this boat.
Btw, if this boat is called Alison K, is it owned by Barry Kimber, the ex owner of Seaward? If so, it is probably a well specced boat in top condition
 
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