Whats a fair price for replacing the PSS shaft seal wear parts on my boat?

[Deleted User YDKXO]

My boat is in South of France and I have been told that the PSS shaft seal on one side is leaking. The boat is coming out of the water in a few days time so I thought it would be an opportune time to replace the wearing parts for the shaft seals on both sides. I have asked the yard for a price for carrying out the following

Pull back the (50mm) shafts and props
Replace the PSS wear parts (ie bellows, ring seals, hose clips and screws) on both sides
Replace cutless bearings on both sides (subject to checking for wear)
Reinstall shafts and props

So whats a fair price for doing that including cost of parts but not including lift out and relaunch costs which are included in another quotation?

 

[Portofino]

€300each for the cutless bearings and €400 for the seals .€700 per side in parts which ever way you split it . €1400
Two blokes on €80 / hr morning to strip another morning to refit call it 8 hrs @160 , €1280 .French mornings .
Inc a trip to this place https://www.francehelices.fr/en/products/

€2680 + tax = a tad over € 3 1/4 K

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Thanks P thats pretty much what I thought it would be. This is the actual quote I've got

Un lock the nuts retaining the propeller
Extract & remove the props
Unlock and take of the prop nuts
Take out the shaft
Remove the seals
Extract and replace the bushings/bearings (IF NECESSARY)
Re align and refit the shafts and props
Labour: 3500 € ex vat
2 x Shaft seals 2550 € ex vat
4 x cutlass bearings 1600 € ex vat
Small parts & travel expenses 335 € ex vat
Total including vat 9582 €

A bit of a rip off eh? I got a price for the PSS seal wear part kit from T Norris this morning at £155+VAT per side

 

[Hurricane]

IIRC, you have V drives.
Not sure about V drives but with a shaft system like ours, I think I would have to remove the rudders as well to get the shafts out?
And then there is the rudder seals - do they need changing as well.
This kind of thing can topsy.

Thats a little less than £8500.
Yes it sounds steep but a job like that can be full of problems so maybe it is a fixed price knowing that there will be problems.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

IIRC, you have V drives.
Not sure about V drives but with a shaft system like ours, I think I would have to remove the rudders as well to get the shafts out?
And then there is the rudder seals - do they need changing as well.

I hope the rudder seals dont need changing because they were changed last year! The rudders are slightly offset outboard from the shafts so if the props are removed, the shafts can slide past them. Even then I'm not convinced that the props have to come off anyway because they are about 250mm ahead of the rudders so I think they can be slid back far enough to create space for the PSS parts to be slid onto the shafts from the inside. But I'm no expert and yes, the fact that my boat has V drives does make access more tricky but its not that difficult

I still feel I'm being ripped off but my problem is that the boat is due to come out of the water in the next few days so probably the yard thinks they've got me by the short and curlies and they can charge what they like. If I refuse their quote then I'm going to have to find another yard to do the work and pay for another lot of lift out costs

 

[Clancy Moped]

I hope the rudder seals dont need changing because they were changed last year! The rudders are slightly offset outboard from the shafts so if the props are removed, the shafts can slide past them. Even then I'm not convinced that the props have to come off anyway because they are about 250mm ahead of the rudders so I think they can be slid back far enough to create space for the PSS parts to be slid onto the shafts from the inside. But I'm no expert and yes, the fact that my boat has V drives does make access more tricky but its not that difficult

I still feel I'm being ripped off but my problem is that the boat is due to come out of the water in the next few days so probably the yard thinks they've got me by the short and curlies and they can charge what they like. If I refuse their quote then I'm going to have to find another yard to do the work and pay for another lot of lift out costs

I take it it's one of those yards where outside workers are not tolerated?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I take it it's one of those yards where outside workers are not tolerated?

Dont know what its like elsewhere in France but in SoF not only do they not tolerate outside workers but they refuse to use parts supplied by anyone else but themselves. So no shipping parts out from the UK because they're a fraction of the price not that that makes much sense anymore with the new Brexshit rules

 

[Portofino]

How bad is it leaking ?
Maybe they just need a clean up and actual a few hrs running to re mate ?

Thinking where it’s gonna berthed next season ?

Feels very rip off .I have seen them on the shelves at Fr Helices with price labels on hence my estimate.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

How bad is it leaking ?
Maybe they just need a clean up and actual a few hrs running to re mate ?

Thinking where it’s gonna berthed next season ?

Feels very rip off .I have seen them on the shelves at Fr Helices with price labels on hence my estimate.

Trouble is I dont know how bad they're leaking and yes youre right they may dry up when the boat starts to be used. The leak was noticed by the MAN technician who serviced the engines and I've got no reason to distrust him. So the question is do I pay the rip off price for peace of mind or do I risk having to pull the boat out of the water later in the season and which might ruin a holiday

I think I'm going to try to negotiate the price down and make a decision based on how successful that is

 

[Portofino]

Dont know what its like elsewhere in France but in SoF not only do they not tolerate outside workers but they refuse to use parts supplied by anyone else but themselves. So no shipping parts out from the UK because they're a fraction of the price not that that makes much sense anymore with the new Brexshit rules

Dont know what its like elsewhere in France but in SoF not only do they not tolerate outside workers but they refuse to use parts supplied by anyone else but themselves. So no shipping parts out from the UK because they're a fraction of the price not that that makes much sense anymore with the new Brexshit rules

Got my anodes ( + gen lift + AF ) done here .Loano .

There prices exact match obviously anode per anode where 1/2 prices of Fr Helices who the Arie d boom yard use .
Labour was €40 / hr .
Even the stern gear was cheap as chips iirc €200 .We will have to wait and see if the “ snake oil “ they have put on the props works? Pretty confident as they mostly do SY s so I figure they know what works?
One anode waiting to go on .

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Got my anodes ( + gen lift + AF ) done here .Loano .
View attachment 116540
There prices exact match obviously anode per anode where 1/2 prices of Fr Helices who the Arie d boom yard use .
Labour was €40 / hr .
Even the stern gear was cheap as chips iirc €200 .We will have to wait and see if the “ snake oil “ they have put on the props works? Pretty confident as they mostly do SY s so I figure they know what works?
View attachment 116541One anode waiting to go on .

Where's that? Loano?

 

[doug748]

He may have detected witness marks, when they leak they spin the water a good distance. It could have been a temporary problem that solved itself.

I am not sure what a wearing parts kit is. It would be false economy not to replace the graphite block, rotor and bellows - that leaves little else except the hose clamps! I paid over £100 for the very smallest replacement bellows and given the choice would buy the whole lot new, false economy not to given the labour charge in relation to parts.

I might be tempted to chance this summer and buy the parts in the UK. Take them with you negotiate the fitting with the parts in your hand and the manager in front of you.
Allow plenty of time, ASAP don't carry full stock and you may have to wait.

.

 

[MapisM]

Where's that? Loano?

Yes it is.
And FWIW, the yard in Loano is a branch of Amico, the largest superyacht repair and refitting yard in Genoa, whose reputation is excellent.
I visited them some years ago, when ORY was looking for a yard to appoint as Med service center (which they did, eventually), and I was impressed.
Never dealt with the Loano facilities, but I don't see why they shouldn't be equally good.

All that said, with PSS you are unlikely to see the problem getting worse enough to jeopardize your summer.
So, depending on your choices for next winter, you could as well leave it as it is for the moment, and surely save some quid by dealing with it in some more southern yard...

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I am not sure what a wearing parts kit is. It would be false economy not to replace the graphite block, rotor and bellows - that leaves little else except the hose clamps! I paid over £100 for the very smallest replacement bellows and given the choice would buy the whole lot new, false economy not to given the labour charge in relation to parts.

Normally I would agree but here is a video from PSS which claims that the steel and carbon components (rings) should last 15-20,000 hrs which is a lot less than the 1400hrs on my boat!

But in the same video they recommend changing these wear parts every 6-8 yrs and given that I've owned the boat for 6yrs now and I've never changed these and I'd bet that the previous owner didnt change them either, its certainly time these were changed. These are the items for which I was quoted £155+VAT in the UK

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Yes it is.
And FWIW, the yard in Loano is a branch of Amico, the largest superyacht repair and refitting yard in Genoa, whose reputation is excellent.
I visited them some years ago, when ORY was looking for a yard to appoint as Med service center (which they did, eventually), and I was impressed.
Never dealt with the Loano facilities, but I don't see why they shouldn't be equally good.

Well thats an interesting comment. We had booked a flight to Nice on 20 June for a 9 day holiday but as you know France has just placed severe restrictions on visitors from the UK. To get round that I'm planning to get the boat moved across the border into Italy and for us to fly into an Italian airport and avoid France altogether. So if I passed on the quotation I have got for changing the seals and if they did start to leak badly whilst we were on the boat we wouldnt be too far from a good yard

 

[MapisM]

Normally I would agree but...

I also disagree with doug, because it ain't actually wear that creates the leak, it's age.
In fact, even without having seen your bellows, I'm pretty sure that they are still perfectly watertight, and the risk that they will catastrophically fail out of the blue is just about the same as falling from the sky while flying on a jetliner.
Hence my previous comment about considering to do nothing at all for now.
But pretty sure those bellows (which IIRC you never replaced so far) lost by now a fair share of their elasticity, which is what that type of seal relies on.
Jubilee clips and OR are just a side show, obviously worth replacing while you are at that, but essentially a new bellow will make you good to go for another 15 years or whatever.
The only annoying bit is the shaft disconnection of course - no way round that.

PS: I'm half tempted to report to the moderators your new avatar. Poor animal, completely naked?!?
The attire of the previous one was much more elegant!

 

[MapisM]

We will have to wait and see if the “ snake oil “ they have put on the props works?

That light grey looks exactly the same colour of the Velox Plus stuff that my yard (and many others) use. If it is, that's a decent product.
Not sure about how it could perform on your rather fast boat, but by and large it used to stick to 95% of the props surface on my old D boat, and I never bothered cleaning them for the whole summer.
With the current boat, which I use anywhere between 18 and 25kts, after some usage I do see bits detaching, ending at around "only" 80% of the surface covered by the end of the season.
But still not too bad. If there's anything better, I've yet to find it.

 

[Hurricane]

The Tides seals that are used on ours have a spare seal (or two) that are fitted onto the shaft so that if the seal leaks, you can cut the old seal off and slide a new seal down the shaft.
Done in the water.
We had to do it once but I was worried so I got a Princess/MTU engineer who had done it before.
After getting everything ready, I caught him sloshing the spare water that had come from the old leaking seal into another section of the bilge.
I asked why - he said in broken Spanish/English that he was "preparing for the fiesta!!"
Then, he cut the old seal off and water poured in.
All I could think was "Don't panic Mr Mainwaring"
But he cooly slid the new seal down and after a little tightening of the nuts, the flow of water stopped.
And that seal that is still there although, my next lift I'm going to replace the whole unit.

Having watched the guy, I think I would do it myself now - but I would want to know where the nearest travel hoist was and how I could get the boat to it!!

Do PSS offer "on water" lip seal" replacement?
Because that would have been a good solution in this case.

 

[DougH]

Thanks P thats pretty much what I thought it would be. This is the actual quote I've got



A bit of a rip off eh? I got a price for the PSS seal wear part kit from T Norris this morning at £155+VAT per side

Hi Mike,

I've just had the shaft seals and cutless bearings replaced on my Manhattan (60 mm shaft) in Cala d'Or, for Euro 3646 plus vat (Iva).

Nearly one third the cost of your quote.

Motor over to Cala d'Or, have the work done and motor back. You could save money and enjoy the trip.

That's of course if they will still let you in.

Just realised that my seals are Tide Seals, not sure if they are the same as yours.

 

[longjohnsilver]

Thanks P thats pretty much what I thought it would be. This is the actual quote I've got



A bit of a rip off eh? I got a price for the PSS seal wear part kit from T Norris this morning at £155+VAT per side

I sort of guessed at £2k having had a similar job done a few years back. If we were allowed into France I have an excellent mechanic mate who would almost certainly do it easily within my guess amount plus a few £00 for travelling.