What would you do?

[Evadne]

I've been led to believe that under the IRPCS you don't have right of way, a stand-on vessel still has an obligation to take action to prevent a collision if necessary. Hindsight is wonderful, and releasing the preventer earlier, changing course so you weren't near the buoy being used as a racing mark etc. are all obvious, but irrelevant. You hadn't done that, so a small course alteration on his part to avoid a collision was the correct action from the point you describe, IMHO. He did also have every right to moan at you, however impolite he may have been about it.

 

[Sailorsam101]

Good points so let me answer them.

The whole situation from him chaning course to him passing astern of me took 60 - 30 seconds. So not long to do anything.

The forsail was away as it was being sheilded by the main. Not on a broad or a run but sort of in the middle. I had a preventer on as it was choppy and a novice on the helm. So each wave was a potential gybe.
I did try to slow down by luffing into the wind the most i could without hitting the buoy but as previously said with every gust he just turned more towards me. I even tried to turn towards him to pass his stern but again he slightly changed course as the wind dropped so once again on a direct course.

I think whatever i did would not have avoided the situaiton. he was very close to being swept onto the buoy himself so he was trying to get every inch uptide he could and therefore was not holding a constant course. So how could i avoid a boat whos direction was always changing.

 

[Moonshining]

So he was the stand on vessel and not standing on?

Sounds like you should have been the one doing the yelling.

 

[Sailorsam101]

Yes you are right but don't forget that he was a racing boat with expensive sails and lots of crew with matching waterproofs....therefore he must by devine right own the water....!

 

[Salty John]

Sounds like you didn't inconvenience him too much and he was probably aware of your predicament. However, it was up to you to gybe out of his way and the preventer made that difficult. I'd recommend that in future you take the preventer tail back to the cockpit so you can dump it in an instant and do a crash gybe.

 

[chrisc]

head into wind for 20 seconds.

 

[Sailorsam101]

That would mean being swept into the big green buoy

 

[awol]

You sail around unable to manoeuver, apparently listening to the vhf, don't give way to a stand-on vessel then manage to infer that the stand on vessel believes he has devine (sic) water owning rights.
You were wrong, he missed you (therefore he did what was required) and that he commented on your parentage, I.Q., and/or fitness for purpose while passing should not have come as a surprise.

 

[Benbow]

Crowded waters, strong tide, crew who could not take the helm. Sorry to sound like a smart-arse, but I absolutely would not have had a preventer on, indeed I would not have been on a dead run if I could avoid it!

Even without a preventer, ending-up in the situation where going one way would hit something and going the other way would require a gybe is always to be avoided. Suppose the wind had died - would you have been carried onto the buoy? I once read the wise words, that when on a run, the boom should point at the hazard.

(All standard disclaimers - and of course I have made plenty of bigger mistakes !!)

 

[Sailorsam101]

That maybe the case but my whole poing of this post was to discuss how other would have handled this situation. As you can see it developed very quickly indeed form nothing to being very close in a matter of seconds.
As for being unable to manoeuver...i could move the boat very well indeed . The problem was the tide and the buoy. Without either this would hvae been a non event.

In the 30 or so seconds that this took to develop from nothing to serious i could not turn to port at all....green buoy...turn to starboard would have meatn slowing down and not having the control to avoid him....it was tricky. but it ended ok

 

[flaming]

[ QUOTE ]
You sail around unable to manoeuver, apparently listening to the vhf, don't give way to a stand-on vessel then manage to infer that the stand on vessel believes he has devine (sic) water owning rights.
You were wrong, he missed you (therefore he did what was required) and that he commented on your parentage, I.Q., and/or fitness for purpose while passing should not have come as a surprise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo.

For what it's worth, I regard a preventer that requires someone on the foredeck to release to be only slightly preferable to no preventer at all, and I would definately not use one in restricted waters.

That said, sounds to me like your best plan would have been to fire up the engine, bucket load of revs, turn hard to starboard gybing the main onto the preventer and turning back once clear. In any kind of wind you're going to need a whole heap of revs to overcome the backed main but in a modern boat with a big engine i would expect it to work.

 

[bilbobaggins]

[ QUOTE ]
with every gust he changes his course

[/ QUOTE ]

So he didn't maintain his course and speed, as he is required to do under Rule 17a,i, as stand-on vessel?

And you didn't take early and substantial action to keep well clear, as required under Rule 16?

Certainly, Rule 12ii applies as you agree - and Rule 8a is also relevant, 'with due regard to the observance of good seamanship'.

It would certainly have been helpful to you had the helmsman of the stand-on vessel perceived your predicament, and altered course substantially and early, but you could not reasonably expect that. It rather seems as if he/she made appropriate use of Rule 17a, ii and 17b, and a degree of annoyed shouting is a not-unreasonable outcome IMHO.

Perhaps a beer offered/shared and one's regrets for permitting the situation to have developed that far, would allow all to walk away with reasonable satisfaction. No damage or litigation......
Had a collison actually occurred, a marine court would probably have held both of you, in some degree, to blame.

We all get sucked into undesirable situations now and then, then need to find the 'least-cost' exit strategy - as Mssrs. Bush and Blair are now finding out. How would you manage the same situation, the next time?

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[awol]

In a slightly softer tone - there was probably very little else anyone could have done once in your situation. It is likely, having done it once, that you will never let yourself be in that situation again. It's not just preventers that cause problems - a spinnaker or poling the jib goosewinged would have given you and your tyro crew difficulty in the same situation.

Have you tried deliberately gybing with the preventer on to determine the effect?

 

[Will_M]

You understand these types of posts always open up a can of worms!!!!

Comments like this don’t really help, do they… [ QUOTE ]
a racing boat with expensive sails and lots of crew with matching waterproofs....therefore he must by devine right own the water....!

[/ QUOTE ]

Still, with my 'racing boat with expensive sails' hat on, you do seem to illustrate the fact that you set yourself up for restricted manoeuvrability in a scenario where you were ‘in control’ of boat load of novices whom you were instructing.

Probably not the best thing to have done.

For something of nothing to have turn into something of a potential problem in the space of 30 seconds, as you say. Oh and you also say you were keeping a proper look out.

Well they doesn’t really add up does it.

 

[Sailorsam101]

Let me expand upon a few things.


My boat sailing along with plenty of water about me. No boats near apart a racing fleet off to my starboard. They were all on starboard tack and heading about 180 degrees to my course. So no issue here.

Then the lead boat when about 4 - 5 boat lenght away from mine tacks to make them on port tack.

Before that tack i had no indication that the green buoy was going to be used by them. The fact that i was watching them meant that i saw the situtaion and tried to do something about it.

Many people who have replied to me seem to think that southampton water is a place of restricted manoeuvrability.

I think it is plenty big enough for us all. I just happened to be in exactly the wrong place at the exact wrong time with the wrong sail config.

30 seconds earlier or later then no issue.

What i was teaching was how to sail almost downwind in a lumpy sea in safety......not like the chaps we saw standing on coach roofs holding booms out...oh how many times have i seem people sent flying into the water doing this.

So there is no right or wrong here...just a bit of a mess....don't you agree.

 

[Richard10002]

I have to ask why you couldnt pass on the other side of the buoy, but assume that this would have meant your going aground, or similar.... but it would be good to know.

It strikes me that this was an almost perfect application of the Collision Regs.

You alter course to avoid the stand on vessel, (and presumably would have missed him, and he knew it).

He alters course to create another collision situation, etc.. and eventually you can alter course no further.

He takes action to avoid you and passes around your stern.... no collision.... job done!

Should he have shouted at you..... No.. he should have stood on in the first place as required... but in the heat of the situation, we often do and say things we shouldnt.

Should you have done something different.... maybe, and next time you probably will.

 

[Sailorsam101]

I agree...

The reason for leaving the buoy to port is simple. I always teach people to sail where possibleoutside the shipping lane.

the fery and fast cat drivers have hard enough job without the likes of me in their way. I keep out of their bit of water and they keep out of my bit....i always teach this where i can.

if you know southampton water you will be aware of how the shipping lane often gets full with yachst bobbinf around and not seeing the very large ship getting near behind. I see it every weekend in the summer (done it myslef when i was learning)

I'm not perfect at all but i do try to teach that safety is number one at all times.

 

[Robin]

[ QUOTE ]
What i was teaching was how to sail almost downwind in a lumpy sea in safety......not like the chaps we saw standing on coach roofs holding booms out...oh how many times have i seem people sent flying into the water doing this.


[/ QUOTE ]

Genoa alone would be even safer giving more freedom to move either way or slow down, especially if on a roller. Our preventer is taken back and releasable from the cockpit, but is also only 6mm so will probably break in a really bad crash gybe, it beats breaking the boom or gooseneck.

[ QUOTE ]
The reason for leaving the buoy to port is simple. I always teach people to sail where possibleoutside the shipping lane.


[/ QUOTE ]

The nearest shipping lane is Casquets TSS. If you mean the navigable channel as used by big boats that is different but you can surely sail safely up the side of such areas so that a quick diversion outside can be made if needs be, big ships are not always there and will not be on the very side of the channel normally either.

The answer really is as preached by engineless sailors like the Pardys, 'Sail Defensively'. That said we all cock it up occasionally or miss the obvious risk and get forced into a corner.

 

[Sailorsam101]

I never sail downwind in rough seas with just the foresail.

I have read many articles about how the shock to the forestay can snap or weaken it.

The term shipping lane is not used by me in the exact sense. I'm sure you know exactly what i mean.

 

[Robin]

[ QUOTE ]
I have read many articles about how the shock to the forestay can snap or weaken it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you really a qualified instructor? Ever heard of running downwind with a storm jib in a survival gale?


[ QUOTE ]
The term shipping lane is not used by me in the exact sense. I'm sure you know exactly what i mean.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guessed at what you meant yes, but I rather think you thought it up more as an excuse for being so close to the buoy when you could have been a safer distance off bearing in mind that you said the tide was running fast. If you want to sail outside the big ship channels there is space without just shaving the buoys surely?