What would you choose and where would you stick it?

[Adrianwool]

Just been informed that down here in Portugal you are required to have EITHER a dingy OR a liferaft. Apparently the maritime coppers here take a dim view if you get stopped and don't have one or the other.

So, a two part query, if a life raft valise or container and where do you keep it, I am thinking roof of hardtop in a container. I probably only need the costal variety as we tend to coast hop and at mostly are normally no more than 10 nm off the coast. We have high summer temperatures so effect of these on the containerised liferaft needs consideration, anyone in hot climes got experience of this?.

Or, a small inflatable with a lightweight Honda outboard the 2.3 at 13kgs sounds ideal to me, with no desire to become 'hernia man'. But this leads to the issue of where to put the inflatable, (I have seen them placed partially inflated on the coachroof), but it looks ugly and the UV gives the materials quite a hammering. Snap davits not ideal as we always berth stern to, and the stern cabin door from the aft cabin onto the bathing platform is ideal for the crew to get ashore with a rope. Conventional davits hmm if I had a 1938 Silver they would be ideal.

I am thinking about inflating/deflating as necessary (I carry an electric air pump), keeping the darned dingy in its valise except when required. Then, of course, there is the issue of petrol and the outboard....

Please no-one suggest both, great if you are the possessor of endless loot, which sadly I am not!.

Thanks for your suggestions

Adrian

 

[Major Catastrophe]

I am not an expert in this, but if your boat is British registered can they impose that rule on you?

Is there a size minimum as a liferaft or a tender on a 21 footer is a bit difficult?

 

[jfm]

I share the Catastrophe's view. If you are validly UK flagged then UK law applies. Local law can trump UK law if you are in the defined zones of that law, typically a harbour etc, but afaik local laws tend to be navigational not a list of rules as to how a vessel is equipped (else, international shipping would be a nightmare)

So imho you don't need either a tender or a LR. Though, er, I must say that having one or the other is a very good idea

 

[dmmbruce]

Surely, if you have a liferaft, you are stuffed if you use it anytime. It has to be repacked etc. Also it has to be rechecked and certified regularly. All expensive and awkward.

If you have an inflatable, you CAN use it either if you have to, or if you wish to on some occasion. It gives you the options. Furthermore you can go where you want in a powered/rowed dinghy, whereas a liferaft is uncontrolled. And, AFAIK, the dinghy option is likely to be much cheaper.

Mike

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

IMHO, its not worth testing in a Portugese court whether their local law trumps UK law or not because one way or another it will cost you money and possibly cause your boat to be impounded. The world is full of impoverished people who proved they were right in a court of law. In any case, I think they are right. You should have some form of liferaft or inflatable on board for your own safety and a liferaft is way better than a dinghy for saving your life so thats what I would get. I'm sure you could pick up a used liferaft for a few hundred quid and get it serviced, which would be cheaper than a dinghy and o/b.
IMHO, the best place for the liferaft would indeed be on the coach roof. It needs to be well above the waterline to give you time to deploy it in a sinking situation. I've never had any issues with canister stored liferafts on my flybridge in the Med sun. If you are concerned why not get a soft valise stored liferaft which you might be able to squeeze into a cockpit locker. These should be cheaper to buy anyway

 

[jfm]

Surely, if you have a liferaft, you are stuffed if you use it anytime. It has to be repacked etc.

Are you for real? You only use your liferaft if the alternative is death. You step up into it, as they say. You wont ever use it then need to have it repacked, because you wont have the canister any more

A bit like the airbag in your steering wheel

 

[AndieMac]

I'd of thought a dinghy would be the best option, just to give you general freedom to go ashore and visit other boats etc.
It would be a very rare trip for me to not involve some dinghy usage, kids, dogs, walk ashore, etc.
If you want to leave them inflated and on deck somewhere, fearing UV damage, you can buy a cover for protection. Pack it up and store it during the off season.

The raft is clearly the best life saver in adverse conditions, but if you consider the annual service charge, it may be a better option to rent one if you intend to do the occasional long distance offshore cruise.
If the boat sinks in calm to average conditions (hits a container or reef), the dinghy will be fine for a short ride to shore, doing close coastal work.

 

[Kawasaki]

Snap davits not ideal as we always berth stern to,

Adrian

You still have a Nimbus Adrian?
My old Nimbus 27 works ok with a ding on snap davitts
It's easy to just lower slightly for boarding stern to
OR
Why not purchase/ rent a 'grab bag' type liferaft that can be stored aft in the cockpit area somewhere?
Or borrow one and invite the Portugese Fuzz to inspect
Andie's point is valid.
A ding is dead handy anyway!

 

[AndieMac]

You still have a Nimbus Adrian?
My old Nimbus 27 works ok with a ding on snap davitts
It's easy to just lower slightly for boarding stern to
OR
Why not purchase/ rent a 'grab bag' type liferaft that can be stored aft in the cockpit area somewhere?
Or borrow one and invite the Portugese Fuzz to inspect
Andie's point is valid.
A ding is dead handy anyway!

I like the small valise rafts in a cockpit locker, you can carry them about like an overnight bag.
When Scott and Mary Flanders (Egret) were with us last Christmas, our marina was their first port of call after crossing the 1100 miles of the Tasman Sea from New Zealand.
They had a 4 man valise raft and a grab bag full of safeties just inside the saloon door ready to go, apparently the preferred 'at sea' location for those folks.

 

[Kawasaki]

I like the small valise rafts in a cockpit locker,

'Valise' , that's the word I was looking for
Not 'grab bag'!
Hard to find the Welsh translation for 'valise'
It comes out a bit Rude
Cheers
Andie!

 

[AndieMac]

Not 'grab bag'!

It comes out a bit Rude

I thought you were going to say something about a loose moraled lady that hangs around pubs at closing time, that maybe looks a bit better than they should, after a few drinks...

 

[tinkicker0]

Just been informed that down here in Portugal you are required to have EITHER a dingy OR a liferaft. Apparently the maritime coppers here take a dim view if you get stopped and don't have one or the other.

So, a two part query, if a life raft valise or container and where do you keep it, I am thinking roof of hardtop in a container. I probably only need the costal variety as we tend to coast hop and at mostly are normally no more than 10 nm off the coast. We have high summer temperatures so effect of these on the containerised liferaft needs consideration, anyone in hot climes got experience of this?.

Or, a small inflatable with a lightweight Honda outboard the 2.3 at 13kgs sounds ideal to me, with no desire to become 'hernia man'. But this leads to the issue of where to put the inflatable, (I have seen them placed partially inflated on the coachroof), but it looks ugly and the UV gives the materials quite a hammering. Snap davits not ideal as we always berth stern to, and the stern cabin door from the aft cabin onto the bathing platform is ideal for the crew to get ashore with a rope. Conventional davits hmm if I had a 1938 Silver they would be ideal.

I am thinking about inflating/deflating as necessary (I carry an electric air pump), keeping the darned dingy in its valise except when required. Then, of course, there is the issue of petrol and the outboard....

Please no-one suggest both, great if you are the possessor of endless loot, which sadly I am not!.

Thanks for your suggestions

Adrian

At least you can tow a tender if you don't open her up and tippytoe around.

Thought has to be given to how fast you can operate the raft too.

Read a report in MBM a year or two ago where the crew had less than a minute on a 40 foot boat from noticing something was wrong and the thing going to the bottom.

 

[25931]

I share the Catastrophe's view. If you are validly UK flagged then UK law applies. Local law can trump UK law if you are in the defined zones of that law, typically a harbour etc, but afaik local laws tend to be navigational not a list of rules as to how a vessel is equipped (else, international shipping would be a nightmare)

So imho you don't need either a tender or a LR. Though, er, I must say that having one or the other is a very good idea

I am afraid that one IS subject to local laws. The August issue of PBO ( following a letter of mine) makes the legal situation quite clear " pleasure boaters under the jurisdiction of the Coastal State and they could be required to adhere to all of their regulations".
In 30 years of sailing in Portuguese waters I have never been troubled by the Polcia Maritima.

 

[jfm]

I am afraid that one IS subject to local laws. The August issue of PBO ( following a letter of mine) makes the legal situation quite clear " pleasure boaters under the jurisdiction of the Coastal State and they could be required to adhere to all of their regulations".
In 30 years of sailing in Portuguese waters I have never been troubled by the Polcia Maritima.

Who exactly wrote "pleasure boaters under the jurisdiction of the Coastal State and they could be required to adhere to all of their regulations"? A PBO journalist?

PBO may not be the right place to go to get advice on the law, and in this case on conflict of laws.

 

[25931]

Who exactly wrote "pleasure boaters under the jurisdiction of the Coastal State and they could be required to adhere to all of their regulations"? A PBO journalist?

PBO may not be the right place to go to get advice on the law, and in this case on conflict of laws.

RYA Cruising manager Stuart Carruthers

 

[jfm]

Enough said then. You can take your advice on conflict of laws from someone who works for the RYA, if you wish

 

[Tranona]

There is not a "law" as such. The situation with respect to equipping boats is subject to the UN Convention on the Law of the Seas, which establishes two important concepts that apply to both merchant and pleasure boats. The first is "innocent passage" which establishes the right of any vessel to voyage through the territorial waters of a "Coastal State" and when doing so is not subject to (mainly) crewing and equipment requirements of the Coastal State but those of the Flag State. The second principle is "comity" that is one state respecting the laws of another in particular circumstances, of which registration requirements is an example. Note that it only applies to registration requirements not to other aspects of a country's law.

It has to be so otherwise Flag States (with their differing requirements) would not exist, there would be one universal set of regulations. In the Merchant Shipping world the differences are shrinking due to the work of the UN and the IMO, particularly safety standards.

However, in the pleasure boat world you have two problems. Once say, a UK flagged yacht undertakes a passage within the territorial waters of France from one French port to another it is no longer on innocent passage, and the French authorities are perfectly within their rights to make the yacht comply with their requirements. As we know many states have much more restrictive requirements than the UK, which essentially has none for small yachts. Thankfully most EU countries seem to extend comity in all situations, otherwise they get into trouble with the spirit of freedom of movement. If they did not do so none of us could base our boats in France, Spain, Greece etc without complying with their registration requirements.

If you step only just outside the EU, for example into Croatia and Turkey you will find that they do not always apply "comity" and force visitors to comply with their local requirements. In Croatia for example you cannot get a permit to cruise in their territorial waters without a recognised skippers certificate of competence.

So the Portuguese authorities could quite legitimately force you to have a liferaft if their registration requirements for your size and type of boat requires it - but only if you are based in the country, not just making a one off visit to a port - or even regular visits in and out such as a trading vessel might.

In reality, however, not sure the authorities in Portugal have any formal position on the subject. There are local taxes levied on boats, and I guess overzealous officials may try to stretch their powers. They do retain, under the UN convention the power to detain a foreign registered vessel on safety grounds. This regularly happens in the UK where MCA stop dangerous vessels from leaving port, even if not UK registered. Had an East European fishing boat tied up on Poole Quay last year for just this reason - until it sank!

In case you think I am setting myself up as a barrack room lawyer on the subject, everything here is drawn from the more detailed legal opinion of the RYA, all of which has been published in the members magazine over the years. It is rather unfortunate that Stuart Carruthers contribution was edited to the headlines - as so often happens when magazines get hold of things. As to whether it is good legal opinion depends on how seriously you take the fact that the RYA represents the interests of UK yachtsmen on the European and UN working committees on the subject - so I guess must have some idea of what is going on!

BTW if you are a member of the RYA you will know that they have asked members to report incidents where local officials appear to exceeded their authority so that they can take them up at a government level. In reality, most of the reports (like the VAT scares, flares in France etc) turn out to have little substance. Doesn't help if you get the stroppy official on your boat, but the chances are so small as to be not something to worry about.

 

[MapisM]

In Croatia for example you cannot get a permit to cruise in their territorial waters without a recognised skippers certificate of competence.

Since when?!? Not only I've never heard of this, but I cruised the Croatian coast for years (up to 2006), and they never asked ME anything. Just the BOAT papers, to check the lenght and apply their tax accordingly.
Though maybe they never asked because they knew that a license is actually mandatory in Italy, 'dunno.

Otoh, I must say that the PBO statement "...could be required to adhere to all of their regulations" is formally correct.
Of course a Country COULD require pretty much what it wants, within its territorial waters.
But I'm not aware of any which actually do that, for the reasons you already explained, among others.

PS: maybe Deleted User, who's been there recently, could enlighten us if he reads this: did they ask you any certificate upon entrance in Croatia?

 

[Tranona]

Since when?!? Not only I've never heard of this, but I cruised the Croatian coast for years (up to 2006), and they never asked ME anything. Just the BOAT papers, to check the lenght and apply their tax accordingly.

Last year. Well covered in threads on the Liveaboard forum. ICC required or recognised national qualification. List published on Govt website. Other restrictions as I understand it include restrictions on the number of crew changes and high cost - seem to remember 300 Euros for 90 days. Along with rapidly rising p[rices for mooring and eating out makes Croatia a less popular place than previously.

 

[Tranona]

Just checked the RYA site to see if the latest Croatian rules are there - and they are with a link to the govt website.

Also note that everything I said in the longer post is there on the site for everybody (well at least members, not sure whether it is on the general site because my login automatically goes to members).

So if you want the full story on this issue log onto the RYA site in the Boating Abroad section.

If everybody did that before firing off half guesses on here they would be much better informed - as well as knowing the world is not inhabited by officials deliberately setting out to make your life a misery!