What use is the Yachtmaster Offshore Shorebased Certificate?

[hlb]

Re: What use is the Yacht master Offshore Shore based Certificate?

On the basis, that most of us do not want to do anything remotely commercial. I don't see the difference. Same principles apply, which ever port your leaving or entering. The bit in the middle is all the same. Be it 20 miles or 2,000 miles. Don't think anyone's into star gazing these days. But even if is, no use to a power boat. I've list end to very experienced skippers, doing Wales to Ireland on dead reckoning. About 40 miles. They admit they can not hit there target within 10 miles. But then again can sit out at sea, until they know the way. Waiting for fog banks to pass, or tide to come in again.

With a power boat, all these things are not on the cards. You run out of fuel in a few hours. Staying out at sea is not an option. Spare batteries for the spare GPS sound much better advice.

GPS was not accepted when I took day skipper, maybe it is today.

Thing is. With all this dead reckoning stuff. They forget, that most times in the past there were folk on board, that had been to this place, umpteen times before. There granny lived on that hill over there, yep, the one besides the church spire. So it's right a bit, then round the corner. They all had local knowledge. Well at least some of them, depending where you were. Dead reckoning is crap, with man and wife aboard, that's never been here before. One hill or chimney, looks very much like another.. That's why they had all the ship wreaks.

Yep. I understand the need to back up GPS and confirm that with other information. Maybe they've changed things since.

But with dead reckoning, you'd be miles out on a power boat, waiting for the stars, which only come out, now and then.

Might have worked for Columbus, but no good for me. Mind, was it him that discovered the wrong continent. I think. I rest my case.

 

[BrendanS]

Re: What use is the Yacht master Offshore Shore based Certificate?

Bit different in Columbus time. They went looking for new or known continents with no charts, and no idea where they were going. Just headed off hoping they'd hit land. Good on them

 

[hlb]

Re: What use is the Yacht master Offshore Shore based Certificate?

Point being, that dead reckoning, is only any good, once you can get another fix. Like stars. But going to say Ireland, or France. You are not likely to see any stars. No matter, your still ten miles out. This hill looks very much like the other.

I'm not advocating for or against here. Just saying that, this type of navigation. Is not appropriate to a power boat. Where as, flight planning is. OK [--word removed--] hits the pan. Then back to dead reckoning. But should only be for the last mile or two, else turn back.

Thing is, in Columbus times, they did not run out of juice. They could shunt up and down the coast at lea sure. Once finding a creek or inlet, they could anchor at will. Not so today.

Today most anchorages have been taken over by marinas, or mooring buoys, only exposed areas are anchorages.

Yep. it's fairly easy to hit a continent. Hitting an anchorage is some what more difficult.

Think this is where we set off from. Miles out to sea, presents few problems. Choosing a destination, that can be entered safely, with fuel available, is another one. Unlike a sail boat. Without fuel yer dead.

 

[BrendanS]

Re: What use is the Yacht master Offshore Shore based Certificate?

we ignore each other a lot. probably because we are actually quite similar.

 

[hlb]

Re: What use is the Yacht master Offshore Shore based Certificate?

Arrgg. You mean you want to be friends again. One boatless to another boatless.!!!!!

Just wish I had not fit the new F ing carpet. It worked quite well till then. Think MF will be rectifided, quite shortly. Not to sure about me or Debs. Ok a bit long in the touth, sinkings wise twice. I mean, is it only me, that everything is perfect, engines rumbling on. No problems. Then bang.

We are a bit shaken. I mean, how many boats sink round our shores. I dont think many. Well not, 35 ft boats, maybe a few dingies and things.. Sorry to change the subject. Maybe should start again.

 

[alan006]

I don't know if its true or just talk, I heard that the reason that they changed the rules re Advanced Powerboat to only 12 metres was that people were doing the course, getting a commercial endorsement and going to Spain etc and causing problems because as we all know a RIB is a completely different thing to handle than a 24metre motor boat. They got a lot of complaints I think. Perhaps someone knows if this is true.

 

[Solitaire]

[ QUOTE ]
Advanced Powerboat - you need the assessment for the Advanced Powerboat Cert - no need to take any courses (practical or shorebased ) if up to standard - but also need the commercial endorsement which is purely a chq for £20, a medical (Eng1 or ML5) + Sea survival course.
APb Cert + 2 yrs relevant experience permits cat 3 waters, while with 1 yr experience permits only cat 6 waters

[/ QUOTE ]

Since 1st January 2005 it has been a requirement to undergo an exam - both theory and practical - to gain the commercial endorsement for the Advanced Powerboat certificate. This exam can only be undertaken by selected Powerboat trainers and YM examiners. I can tell you that it is not a forgone conclusion either! In effect this brought the Advanced commercial endorsement in line with both the Coastal Skipper and YM commercial endorsements both of which are examined.

While the Powerboat 2 certificate can be endorsed it's use is limited to "3 miles from a nominated departure point" while the Advanced is up to 20 miles from a safe haven day or night. Although both the Powerboat Level 2 certificate and the Day Skipper practical can be endorsed they are seen as little value by commercial operators. Anybody who drives our coded rib on charter for example must be a holder of the Advanced endorsed certificate or above ( Coastal Skipper and YM power) with relevant rib experience.

On another point, the Powerboat 2 certificate qualifies the holder for an ICC up to 10 meters. An interesting point is that if Day Skipper sail is completed then an ICC can be issued for power up to 10 meters without actually having ever driven a powerboat. This is to cover off the issue of using a tender.

 

[Gludy]

Coastwise - I have chacked and disagree.
The RYA site makes it clear that you cannot not commercially endorse ther APB and need to take a new exam so your point is not correct.

 

[Solitaire]

You commercially endorse the APB by taking the exam - read my post! Anybody can do the APB but you have to be examined to be commercially endorsed. The exam takes the form of a question paper and a practical on water test including a night navigation exercise. The exam is normally an afternoon running into the evening

If the Advanced Powerboat certificate was awarded before the 31st December 2004 then the holder could apply to the RYA with the appropriate supporting evidence - medical, sea survival, 1st aid and VHF - and be issued with the commercial endorsement; irrespective of when they applied for the commercial endorsement

From Jan 1st 2005 that changed and if a person did their APB cert after that that date they would have to be separately examined.[/b]

We run the commercial endorsement exam and I know how it works!

 

[Gludy]

I am not disputing what you state.

The fact is that you need an exam.

When you have the Coastal Skipper or YM practical you need no further exam hence the APB as it stands cannot be endorsed like the others by adding the First aid, sea survival etc.

 

[Solitaire]

[ QUOTE ]

The fact is that you need an exam.

When you have the Coastal Skipper or YM practical you need no further exam hence the APB as it stands cannot be endorsed like the others by adding the Fiorst aid, sea survival etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I've said! I have said you need an exam - on several occasions! If you read my first post properly I stated that the need for the exam on the APB cert brought it in line with CS and YM which are examined by an independent RYA appointed examiner and therefore no further examination is required for these two certificates.

The Advanced commercial endorsement carries the same "weight" as Coastal Skipper in terms of the areas covered.

 

[Gludy]

I am and have not disagreed with you - I was responding to another poster who stated you need an assessment. I was simply pointing out that you need an exam so the APB is not on the same level as it stands for commercial use as a Coastal Skipper or Yacht Master which require no further exams just the standard extra certs for first aid, sea survival etc.

Question:
If you want to be commercially endorsed is it not more straight forward a route to go DS, CS, YM? I can see no sense if you want commercial in going the APB route or am I missing something?

 

[Solitaire]

[ QUOTE ]
Question:
If you want to be commercially endorsed is it not more straight forward a route to go DS, CS, YM? I can see no sense if you want commercial in going the APB route or am I missing something?

[/ QUOTE ]

The issue of Day Skipper commercially endorsed is rather the same as Powerboat Level 2 commercial endorsement - it only valid for 3 miles from a nominated departure point - and frankly is not really of any value in the commercial world.

The CS and YM are different and yes, if you had access to a suitable boat then it would make sense. However, there is a great deal of work to be had on ribs from charter companies. For example, our rib was out on charter all of Cowes week and in support of larger vessel, both power and sail. Holders of both CS and YM tickets tend to want to drive the bigger boats while the CE'd Advanced guys get a get thrill out of doing the rib work. Not every body gets to qualify on the "big" boats and some are very happy doing rib work. In fact being a good charter rib driver takes some boat handling - keeping the punters safe and dry, but still giving them a good thrill ride.

I know YM's who can't drive a rib/single engine boat to save their lives, let alone take punters out. So it's horses for courses really.



As to the point of of disagreement - did I miss read this then?

[ QUOTE ]
Coastwise - I have chacked and disagree.
The RYA site makes it clear that you cannot not commercially endorse ther APB and need to take a new exam so your point is not correct.

[/ QUOTE ]


Or was it the fact that you simply responded to the last post you read! Hence my response.

 

[Gludy]

I responded to the last post read and all i was saying was that an exam was needed.

Thanks for clearing up the use of the APB commercial route. Makes sense. However it seems that both routes eg CS/YM or APB with added exam qualify you to skipper the same size boats - its the route there that gives more experience of one type or the other...... right?

 

[Solitaire]

[ QUOTE ]
I responded to the last post read and all i was saying was that an exam was needed.

[/ QUOTE ]

That be why we started to be at loggerheads - I thought you were responding directly to me! That's much clearer now /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[ QUOTE ]
However it seems that both routes eg CS/YM or APB with added exam qualify you to skipper the same size boats - its the route there that gives more experience of one type or the other...... right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Technically yes - it's an MCA call not RYA or for that matter schools either. I would say however that I was not "allowed" to operate boats over 10 meters commercially until I gained my YM with the commercial endorsement added, despite having been commercially endorsed at Advanced PB level for a "number" of years. This was/is a (our) company policy, not any other. There is nothing that says you can't helm a 23 meter boat with an Advanced PB commercial endorsement, just that who knows what might happen in the event of something going wrong. Back to technicalities again!

I started my boating life on small boats and worked my way up. I didn't have the luxury of being able to afford a boat of over 10 meters. I don't regret it at all - I sometimes think people buy too bigger a boat to start with and end up not using it and then selling it. Or they move on again before really mastering what they had. No amount of money can buy experience! You just have to go out there and do it.

However I will add that there comes a certain time when achieving a certificate such as CS or YM does indicate that you have achieved a certain level under exam conditions. It's the same with the Advanced Powerboat certificate as well now.

 

[Gludy]

[ QUOTE ]

No amount of money can buy experience! You just have to go out there and do it.


[/ QUOTE ]

I 100% agree with that.

I also think that the theory is important and that theory comboned with practical experience is the way to go.

You are surposed to have experience of heavy seas etc before taking the YM practical - so in a sense you have to be a little bit stupid in pushing the envelope to gain the experience you need. Mistakes are also a very good way to learn - not just ones own mistakes but mistakes of others.

I think the RYA system is overall pretty good and I think the examination standard is overall OK. The only thing I would alter is the sea survival course which I think is too theoretical and almost misleading in some ways.

 

[Solitaire]

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing I would alter is the sea survival course which I think is too theoretical and almost misleading in some ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmmmmm, that's interesting! I think that is more down to the instructor than the course itself. We always get great feed back and they love the pool bit.

 

[Gludy]

My criticsms were:-
1. They did not point out any real practical things about what it is really like to right a life raft in real sea conditions and so many assumed that they learnt how to right a raft.
2. They did not really mention spray hoods and splash drowning. I did that and gave a demo of the spray hood - they had niot even supplied a spray hood to demo.

 

[PaulGlatzel]

Just a couple of observations:

"When you have the Coastal Skipper or YM practical you need no further exam hence the APB as it stands cannot be endorsed like the others by adding the First aid, sea survival etc."

Coastal Skipper is a 5 day course with the option of an exam at the end. Logically you would only do the exam if you wished to work commercially. In contrast there is no YM Course just the Exam. Schools (us included) put together bespoke YM Prep courses as a workup to the exam but they are not RYA Courses – so actually there is a bit of a difference between the two.

"If you want to be commercially endorsed is it not more straight forward a route to go DS, CS, YM? I can see no sense if you want commercial in going the APB route or am I missing something?"

If you want to work commercially on the larger boats then realistically I don’t think you’d get much work unless you are YM so arguably you would work towards YM perhaps acquiring and using CS Commercial along the way. I agree that you wouldn’t logically pursue the Advanced route unless working on the smaller boats was your aim.

"The issue of Day Skipper commercially endorsed is rather the same as Powerboat Level 2 commercial endorsement - it only valid for 3 miles from a nominated departure point - and frankly is not really of any value in the commercial world."

I agree that Level 2 is valid for commercial work (with certain stipulations) “Within 3 miles of a Nominated Departure Point” however Dayskipper can be used “Up to 20m from a Nominated Departure Point in fine weather & daylight.” So there will be situations where this becomes a usable qualification. Charter companies in the Solent on RIBs sometimes use Level 2 Commercially Endorsed qualified Skippers if they are good enough as they are operating within the 3 mile NDP.

"I don't know if its true or just talk, I heard that the reason that they changed the rules re Advanced Powerboat to only 12 metres was that people were doing the course, getting a commercial endorsement and going to Spain etc and causing problems because as we all know a RIB is a completely different thing to handle than a 24metre motor boat. They got a lot of complaints I think. Perhaps someone knows if this is true."

I think this has been covered but Advanced is not limited to 12m. I’ve not heard of any such issues in the Med and/or numerous complaints. In practice those with Advanced don’t tend to get to helm vessels commercially that they are inexperienced on as logically owners/managing agents need to ensure skippers have the experience for the job. If they do have the experience then they will go for YM – so it sorts itself out really.

"Can anyone tell me exactly what benefit it is to me to hold this certificate? I took it many moons ago at our local college over a 20 week course of 2 hours per week. By some fluke I havent lost the certificate either!!"

In a commercial sense surely the value of the qualification is that undertaking the course and achieving the required level to be able to pass the exam helps to develop the necessary skills to assist in the progress towards the YM exam. The same result can be achieved by self study without attending the theory course but i would argue with a good Instructor much of the value is in how he/she brings aspects of the course to life and evidences the benefits/uses of the techniques in 'real life'

Regards

Paul

 

[Gludy]

[ QUOTE ]
Coastal Skipper is a 5 day course with the option of an exam at the end. Logically you would only do the exam if you wished to work commercially. In contrast there is no YM Course just the Exam. Schools (us included) put together bespoke YM Prep courses as a workup to the exam but they are not RYA Courses – so actually there is a bit of a difference between the two.


[/ QUOTE ]

You can take the exam without the course and of course their is value in taking the exam even though you may now wish to add the commercial bits for the very same reason that most take these exams.

I agree with all your other points.