What to do with end-of-life plastic boats?

[mrming]

A thought. Are we looking at this the wrong way on? GRP hulls etc. effectively last indefinitely. Most components such as mast and spars do also. It seems to me that the problem arises because the maintenance costs of a yacht do not decline with time, but the perceived value does, so people buy boats without recognizing that there is an ongoing cost of maintenance that may far exceed the purchase price. The boats we are talking about may NOW be end-of-life, but that is because the necessary maintenance costs haven't been met so the perishable parts of the boat such as woodwork have deteriorated beyond economic repair. The same boat maintained properly would still be sailing and going on for many years, and would retain far more of its value; a well-kept, ready-to-go boat will always fetch more.

So, could there be a mechanism to ensure that buyers recognize and accept the ongoing costs of maintenance? Perhaps some sort of indemnity scheme? It won't help with existing wrecks in the corner of boatyards, but might stop their number from increasing.

My point is that a mechanism to ensure that boats are maintained appropriately (perhaps something like the MOT?) would allow many potential wrecks to have long lives giving pleasure to those who can't afford to buy new. After all, it works for cars!

Marinas and harbours could perhaps help enforce maintenance, or else the boat is impounded and sold before it gets too bad. Perhaps an agreed standard of survey pass could be the measure. An industry could spring up around the necessary maintenance and inspection regime. Owners on a budget could do their own maintenance and those with money but not time could pay. It would certainly improve the woeful situation for paid boat maintenance in the UK right now. Yes less people would be able to commit to a yacht, but at the moment those are the people leaving them to rot.

 

[RupertW]

Falmouth...

Damn, I was going to wander along after a drink at the Cutty Sark

 

[ducked]

But the other side of the MOT is that it has encouraged manufacturers to build cars that (for example) don't rust. In the last century, you took it for granted that a new car might start to show signs of rust within a very few years, certainly if you had a minor scrape, but no new car I've bought in this century has ever suffered even slight rust, and I take no special precautions. My oldest car is from 2003, and although I've had to replace other parts, the metalwork is all perfectly fine.

Perhaps an equivalent for boats would encourage builders to emphasize maintainability? Many tales on here show that maintainability hasn't been high on builders' priorities in the past!

I understand where you're coming from on the regulation front, but either we want to sort this problem out or we don't. One possible mechanism that doesn't entail a registration system would be to require boat sales to include some sort of indemnity insurance against the possibility of the boat becoming uneconomic to maintain; this could be enforced by the Crown Commissioners (for moorings), boatyards and marinas asking to see such insurance just as marinas and boatyards do for third party and removal of wreck insurance.

The point is to make sure that people buying boats know without any possible doubt what it costs to maintain a boat, and to take it on with their eyes open. The boats abandoned in odd corners are generally the result of someone thinking that it looked like a cheap holiday option, without recognizing that an old boat costs just as much to maintain as a new one.

OTOH it hasn't stopped them building cars overburdened with superfluous electronic crap such as reversing cameras that by slight corrosion can take the com network down and leave you walking and/or turn the mystery money light on.
\
Closest boat analogy I can think of would be balsa cored decks, and I doubt it would stop them doing that either.

Call me cynical, but I've learned it is quite hard to be too cynical, and often quite an effort to manage to be cynical enough.

 

[Wansworth]

Marinas and harbours could perhaps help enforce maintenance, or else the boat is impounded and sold before it gets too bad. Perhaps an agreed standard of survey pass could be the measure. An industry could spring up around the necessary maintenance and inspection regime. Owners on a budget could do their own maintenance and those with money but not time could pay. It would certainly improve the woeful situation for paid boat maintenance in the UK right now. Yes less people would be able to commit to a yacht, but at the moment those are the people leaving them to rot.

Here in Spain there is a five year inspection ,a surveyor at the owners cost checks out the basic structure and engine etc helps if your selling to have a long period of time left or your boat has just passed the test

 

[Ian_Edwards]

I can't see any compulsory MOT or other inspection scheme working without compulsory registration. Not a thing I would like to see.
I also see the small budget cruiser market gradually disappearing. There are plenty of starter boats, many requiring at least some level of TLC, available at very affordable prices. But when a first time buyer looks at the cost of keeping a boat, the annual mooring fees are often comparable with the purchase price. Then when you add in the inflated cost "Marine" labeled paint, chandlery ect, owning a cheap starter boat is no longer cheap. People just walk away, and never start cruising.
The lack of a vibrant second hand market, will make abandoned boat an ever increasing problem.

 

[flaming]

I can't see any compulsory MOT or other inspection scheme working without compulsory registration. Not a thing I would like to see.
I also see the small budget cruiser market gradually disappearing. There are plenty of starter boats, many requiring at least some level of TLC, available at very affordable prices. But when a first time buyer looks at the cost of keeping a boat, the annual mooring fees are often comparable with the purchase price. Then when you add in the inflated cost "Marine" labeled paint, chandlery ect, owning a cheap starter boat is no longer cheap. People just walk away, and never start cruising.
The lack of a vibrant second hand market, will make abandoned boat an ever increasing problem.

To my mind the compulsory registration is likely to come, and we probably shouldn't be too worried about it. I'd be more concerned by any attempt to police the issue without compulsory registration....

I wouldn't bother with the "MOT" though, simply enact a law that says the registered owner is liable for any disposal costs if a boat on public land/harbour space hasn't moved for X time and is deemed "unseaworthy" by the harbourmaster etc, enforceable by county court judgement. In effect, "use it or lose it". Boats on private land where the bills aren't being paid should be treated the same way -sold if possible or bills for disposal sent to the registered keeper, enforceable by county court.

As others have said, the issue with the older boats is not often the GRP hull, but all the stuff that's bolted onto it.

 

[Malish]

The lack of a vibrant second hand market, will make abandoned boat an ever increasing problem.

In some ways the manufacturers only have a passing interest in the second hand market - they only make money from new sales, although 'value' and 'longevity/resale price' will matter to some new boat buyers. An example would be seacocks from a few years ago that passed the ISO standard but were unreliable and substandard in the eyes of many. Tbh I am somewhat surprised that modern manufacturers are not encouraging a disposal scheme, especially for 'charter' boats, so as to keep their new sales buoyant.

 

[penberth3]

Damn, I was going to wander along after a drink at the Cutty Sark

The Cutty Sark is opposite the NMMC, you can do both .

 

[Muddy32]

Often the "boat" in question no longer has it's original owner, having gone sailing in the sky. HIs/her "beneficiaries" either don't know or don't want the trouble of its' future.

 

[ducked]

But the other side of the MOT is that it has encouraged manufacturers to build cars that (for example) don't rust. In the last century, you took it for granted that a new car might start to show signs of rust within a very few years, certainly if you had a minor scrape, but no new car I've bought in this century has ever suffered even slight rust, and I take no special precautions. My oldest car is from 2003, and although I've had to replace other parts, the metalwork is all perfectly fine.

Perhaps an equivalent for boats would encourage builders to emphasize maintainability? Many tales on here show that maintainability hasn't been high on builders' priorities in the past!

I understand where you're coming from on the regulation front, but either we want to sort this problem out or we don't. One possible mechanism that doesn't entail a registration system would be to require boat sales to include some sort of indemnity insurance against the possibility of the boat becoming uneconomic to maintain; this could be enforced by the Crown Commissioners (for moorings), boatyards and marinas asking to see such insurance just as marinas and boatyards do for third party and removal of wreck insurance.

The point is to make sure that people buying boats know without any possible doubt what it costs to maintain a boat, and to take it on with their eyes open. The boats abandoned in odd corners are generally the result of someone thinking that it looked like a cheap holiday option, without recognizing that an old boat costs just as much to maintain as a new one.

Come to think on't, the MOT hasn't stopped the car industry lobbying for a govt funded scrappage scheme on rather doubtful environmental and safety grounds either, particularly now that people are keeping vehicles longer.

Scrappage scheme UK 2025 | AutoTrader

According to

AGEING CARS FUEL A RISE IN BREAKDOWNS

UK average fleet age increased from 6.6 years in 2003 to 9.4 years in 2023, which they claim has resulted in a rise in breakdowns. Vehicle retention increased particularly post-COVID with lower availability and higher pricing of new cars.

Average Age of Cars in Great Britain

Goes back further, to 1994, with the average age fluctuating but overall increasing, attributed largely due to socioeconomic factors

The site below suggests scrapping age has been generally flat at 14 years, but that it dipped to 13 years in 2009 due to a large scale government funded scrappage payment scheme, a point echoed by several other sites. In general age-at-scrapping seems to be mostly influenced by socioeconomic and policy factors. Though inherent car qualities, especially corrosion resistance, are probably involved, its not really possible to draw conclusions on them from the scrappage age

How old is the average scrap car? - BMS Salvage

I'd think new boat purveyors are likely to have similar motivations, and that some kind of scrappage scheme is the most likely result of regulation, though probably mandated with a cheap stick rather than encouraged with an expensive car-stylee carrot.

 

[RogerJolly]

It's simple - like at school when you can only get a new jotter when you show the teacher the old full one, you can only buy a new boat when you've got an old wreck you've finished with to hand in.

 

[Poignard]

Like Royal Naval Storekeepers who would only issue a new light bulb upon receipt of a defective one!

 

[Avocet]

Come to think on't, the MOT hasn't stopped the car industry lobbying for a govt funded scrappage scheme on rather doubtful environmental and safety grounds either, particularly now that people are keeping vehicles longer.

Scrappage scheme UK 2025 | AutoTrader

According to

AGEING CARS FUEL A RISE IN BREAKDOWNS

UK average fleet age increased from 6.6 years in 2003 to 9.4 years in 2023, which they claim has resulted in a rise in breakdowns. Vehicle retention increased particularly post-COVID with lower availability and higher pricing of new cars.

Average Age of Cars in Great Britain

Goes back further, to 1994, with the average age fluctuating but overall increasing, attributed largely due to socioeconomic factors

The site below suggests scrapping age has been generally flat at 14 years, but that it dipped to 13 years in 2009 due to a large scale government funded scrappage payment scheme, a point echoed by several other sites. In general age-at-scrapping seems to be mostly influenced by socioeconomic and policy factors. Though inherent car qualities, especially corrosion resistance, are probably involved, its not really possible to draw conclusions on them from the scrappage age

How old is the average scrap car? - BMS Salvage

I'd think new boat purveyors are likely to have similar motivations, and that some kind of scrappage scheme is the most likely result of regulation, though probably mandated with a cheap stick rather than encouraged with an expensive car-stylee carrot.

Those scrappage schemes in the first link, are either local government or manufacturer-funded. I don't think there's anything doubtful about the environmental grounds? Low emissions zones are primarily about air quality, and it's an absolutely demonstrable fact that a Euro 6d car, (anything registered after about the end of 2020) is massively better in that regard than anything that went before. I agree that the argument in CO2 terms, is harder to make, but on air quality, it's very clear-cut.

I can't post the link here, because it's not in the public domain, but the average age at scrappage for a car in the UK is now nearer 15 years, and its average mileage, 158,000 at scrappage. (That latter being surprisingly low to me, but those are what SMMT reckons)! I'm not sure the rise is entirely down to economic factors, I think cars are also genuinely more durable than ever before. That's not a popular perception, but actually, modern cars are just "better" - despite all their perceived complexity.

 

[Wansworth]

Those scrappage schemes in the first link, are either local government or manufacturer-funded. I don't think there's anything doubtful about the environmental grounds? Low emissions zones are primarily about air quality, and it's an absolutely demonstrable fact that a Euro 6d car, (anything registered after about the end of 2020) is massively better in that regard than anything that went before. I agree that the argument in CO2 terms, is harder to make, but on air quality, it's very clear-cut.

I can't post the link here, because it's not in the public domain, but the average age at scrappage for a car in the UK is now nearer 15 years, and its average mileage, 158,000 at scrappage. (That latter being surprisingly low to me, but those are what SMMT reckons)! I'm not sure the rise is entirely down to economic factors, I think cars are also genuinely more durable than ever before. That's not a popular perception, but actually, modern cars are just "better" - despite all their perceived complexity.

Yes,I recall my father bringing inthe spark plugs to warm over the gas of his morris traveller…..Haven’t done that yet on my Renault Scenic

 

[dunedin]

To my mind the compulsory registration is likely to come, and we probably shouldn't be too worried about it. I'd be more concerned by any attempt to police the issue without compulsory registration....

I wouldn't bother with the "MOT" though, simply enact a law that says the registered owner is liable for any disposal costs if a boat on public land/harbour space hasn't moved for X time and is deemed "unseaworthy" by the harbourmaster etc, enforceable by county court judgement. In effect, "use it or lose it". Boats on private land where the bills aren't being paid should be treated the same way -sold if possible or bills for disposal sent to the registered keeper, enforceable by county court.

As others have said, the issue with the older boats is not often the GRP hull, but all the stuff that's bolted onto it.

I am tending to come to the same conclusion. PROVIDED they don’t use it as an opportunity to dramatically increase prices from current SSR costs, I suspect compulsory registration might be a net good thing - especially for the abandoned and end of life boats issue, which is a real and growing problem.
Of course “owners” of abandoned boats won’t bother to register. But that might at least make it easier for abandoned boats to be either sold before get too far gone, or be disposed of in bulk groups which might be more economical.

 

[Avocet]

The only reason yachts have woodwork, fancy cabin soles and headlining is aesthetics. There is no real need for woodwork, headlining nor fancy cabin soles .... but make the decorations removable, easily and without much damage, and you have a vessel that will last as long as the GRP. Plastic dinghies (and some wooden ones, last for ever (or a long time). Change the focus of the build to longevity, remove the printed wood finish and stapled drawer joints - and then you minimise the cost of re-birthing a yacht.

The preceding paragraphs makes the case, badly, for a AWB (exterior) to an AWB in/exterior. As a sales marketing strategy I think it would sell like lead balloons.

I'm not sure I'm convinced by the car analogy - amongst the fears of 'range' and availability of recharging points is the fear that the cost of buying and installing a new battery for an EV will be so high it will be uneconomic (or impossible - BYD are building the batteries into the chassis) - and much of EVs will be converted to scrap with a lifespan much shorter than a petrol or diesel model.

Jonathan

I think the fear of having to replace a complete battery, is a bit like the fear some hundreds of years ago, that iron ships wouldn't float - or that "clipper" bows wouldn't rise to meet waves like a bluff bow would. The average age of a car at scrappage in the UK, is currently about 15 years. I don't see any evidence that EVs will have much shorter lifespans? Currently, they haven't been around in large enough numbers for long enough to form a solid statistical picture, but there are a dozen or so on Autotrader that are 15 years old (or older), and they seem to be asking good money compared to similar ICE cars.

 

[Avocet]

Yes,I recall my father bringing inthe spark plugs to warm over the gas of his morris traveller…..Haven’t done that yet on my Renault Scenic

When I was a student, it used to be the whole distributor cap and plug leads under the grill for a few minutes before setting off on a cold, damp morning!

 

[Avocet]

Back on topic though, are there many GRP boats in the UK that are berthed somewhere that doesn't demand a survey? Genuine question. I thought most marinas demanded it? Sure, there will be lots of trailer sailers that don't live in marinas, and there will be lots of boats up remote creeks, rather than marinas, but rather than an "MOT" could the survey not be used to police this?

A decade or so ago, all Avocet's gelcoat was chipping off the topsides, and I thought long and hard about chainsawing her up and weighing-in the lead from the keel, but eventually decided against it and replaced the gelcoat. That should have written the boat off, really, in which case, it would have become exactly the kind of festering hulk that this thread is about. I guess some sort of "bond" might be the only way to cover the cost of disposal, but it would, in itself, result in a load of boats getting scrapped, immediately prior to its introduction, I guess?

 

[dunedin]

Back on topic though, are there many GRP boats in the UK that are berthed somewhere that doesn't demand a survey? Genuine question. I thought most marinas demanded it? Sure, there will be lots of trailer sailers that don't live in marinas, and there will be lots of boats up remote creeks, rather than marinas, but rather than an "MOT" could the survey not be used to police this?

A decade or so ago, all Avocet's gelcoat was chipping off the topsides, and I thought long and hard about chainsawing her up and weighing-in the lead from the keel, but eventually decided against it and replaced the gelcoat. That should have written the boat off, really, in which case, it would have become exactly the kind of festering hulk that this thread is about. I guess some sort of "bond" might be the only way to cover the cost of disposal, but it would, in itself, result in a load of boats getting scrapped, immediately prior to its introduction, I guess?

I am not aware of any marina or moorings that “demand a survey”. Where do you think does this?
Insurance is generally mandatory, at least third party (and hopefully salvage/recovery) - but even then i have never been asked to show this. Some insurers require a survey, but not all - and often only for comprehensive.

 

[Avocet]

I am not aware of any marina or moorings that “demand a survey”. Where do you think does this?
Insurance is generally mandatory, at least third party (and hopefully salvage/recovery) - but even then su have never been asked to show this. Some insurers require a survey, but not all - and often only for comprehensive.

Ah, that's true. I keep thinking in terms of my 50+ year old boat! I think pretty much all marinas require insurance, but I forgot that many boats would be able to get that without a survey.