What to do if surveyor is negligent

[Paddingtonbear]

Hello all
As some of you may recall I have returned to lumpy water after some thirty years away. I wanted to buy a motor sailer as SWMBO is very anti lumpy water and said that she would come if she did not have to do anything bar make tea. In any event we could not find a suitable motor sailer as we lighted upon a 33' wooden motor boat that she and to a lesser extent I fell in love with. It was sensible money and seemed a sensible boat with lots of work done fairly recently(£30000 worth) by a very reputable yard, so we thought it worth a punt. I went on the internet a sought advice re. surveyor and found one very local who made all the right noises both personally and on his web site. So he was instructed to undertake a pre purchase survey at which we were present. He explained everything as he went on and in the end said that it was a very sound boat with very little wrong. And he produced a report to this effect. I perhaps should also add here that he had surveyed the boat previously which we thought a good thing but now we are not so sure. It needed a total of about about 70' of planking and a breast hook which he said would cost around £2000 so we renegotiated the price down by almost the same amount, meaning that overall we had reduced it by 30%. The following day we paid over the balance and sailed off in to the sunset or should I say the reputable boat yard where the repairs were to take place. They have discovered considerably more planking to be replaced, the apron needed replacing and worst of all in some ways as it is by far the most obvious the front deck and the deck beams are rotten and will need replacing. Had I have known all this before i would probably walked but at least I would have negotiated the price down to almost nothing. Needless to say I am severely pissed off and the boatyard needs to know how to proceed if at all. Comments anyone?

 

[sailorman]

what did the surveyor say when you told him

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Are those figures correct? I make it that the boat cost around £7k and that she had had £30k spent on her?

Apart from that.....

1. Have you seen the work that the yard is saying needs doing? It isn't unknown for yards to pad things out.
2. What does the survey say?
3. As already said, what does your surveyor say?

 

[Paddingtonbear]

Your figures are almost exactly right. And yes I have of course been to the yard on several occasions albeit around 150 miles each way. I have not been in touch with the surveyor as it is likely that I would not be able to contain myself. If that is the way to go I shall try tomorrow but he is such a smarmy git that I shall probably end up apologysing!!!!! I am sure that it will all end with me loosing completely as the terms and conditions probably say the a surveyor can never be wrong in any circumstances.

 

[matelot]

What to do? Well the surveyor responsibility is to do the work contracted with the care expected of a professional. That is not the same as spotting every defect and in particular where those defects cannot be spotted without taking the boat to bits. He cannot be expected to spot problems that are not visible and he usually limits the areas he looks at too.

So you rteally need to ask yourself whether the problems you have should have been spotted ie were clearly visible. You also need to ask yourself whether they are what is to be expected in an old cheapo wooden boat ie part of the game.

If you are then happy that he should have seen the problems write to him stating that, detailing the issues and asking for his response.

On my current boat the surveyor failed to spot a split in the toe rail extrusion. I negotiated some compo albeit not enough to replace the toe rail because that would have involved taking on ghis insurance in court. Life's too short for that.

 

[sailorman]

Your figures are almost exactly right. And yes I have of course been to the yard on several occasions albeit around 150 miles each way. I have not been in touch with the surveyor as it is likely that I would not be able to contain myself. If that is the way to go I shall try tomorrow but he is such a smarmy git that I shall probably end up apologysing!!!!! I am sure that it will all end with me loosing completely as the terms and conditions probably say the a surveyor can never be wrong in any circumstances.

is he a member of a professional body with pro indemnity ins

 

[sarabande]

Assuming that you had a written survey, does the document contain any "I was unable to examine the following bits because it was dark/wet/hidden behind a curtain, etc" statements ?

Is the surveyor a member of a professional survey organisation ?

How long ago was the survey undertaken ?

How long did he spend doing the survey ?

Have you had a professional assessment in writing of the current state of the boat, in detail ?



It is very tempting to go off the deep end at the surveyor, but probably best that you restrict yourself to writing carefully, something like ' a possible discrepancy exists between your comments x,y,z in the survey report and a report issued by ABC yard on this date. I offer you the chance to make a comment, and am happy for you to re-examine the boat at your expense if you wish.'

It doesn't matter if the boat is not a big and expensive one, the surveyor has a professional duty to give you accurate and reasonably detailed report, clearly indicating areas he was unable to examine, e.g. engine, keel bolts, mast head light, etc.

 

[oldfatgit]

What ever you do, all your dealings with the surveyor must be polite, professional and calm. If you don't think you can remain so do you have someone you trust who can speak in your stead? If so get them to conduct negotiations on your behalf. As said above, if he couldn't examine something he should have said so unless it is a blinding glimpse of the blatantly obvious. Furthermore, before getting too formal you must make him aware of your concerns and give him a fair chance to put things right.

 

[sailorman]

What ever you do, all your dealings with the surveyor must be polite, professional and calm. If you don't think you can remain so do you have someone you trust who can speak in your stead? If so get them to conduct negotiations on your behalf. As said above, if he couldn't examine something he should have said so unless it is a blinding glimpse of the blatantly obvious. Furthermore, before getting too formal you must make him aware of your concerns and give him a fair chance to put things right.

make sure all dealings ( preferably in writing) are well reasoned & fully documented

 

[NealB]

Many years ago, I bought a boat after a pre-purchase survey had highlighted no major issues.

The survey had been done by a respected, recommended, member of the YBDSA.

A couple of months later, I noticed rot in one of the deck beams. Further prodding revealed that it extended into the beam shelf, coachroof, all round the side-decks and into the cockpit.

To cut a long, sad, story short, I phoned the surveyor (I was calm, reasonable and polite), and he immediately agreed to come over for a look.

As soon as he stepped aboard, he drew a sharp intake of breath and, his exact words were, "my God, I don't know how I missed all this".

I then dealt with the loss adjuster from his indemnifiers, and had no more dealings with the surveyor himself.

After fairly prolonged, determined, negotiations, I eventually settled on a payment for compensation that covered the price I'd paid for the boat, plus the expenses I'd necessarily incurred.

I lost a season of sailing, and tried unsuccessfully to claim for loss of use.

So.....speak civilly to your surveyor first, and see how he responds.

 

[Paddingtonbear]

I am fully aware that the surveyor can not check what he can't get to and for this reason I have let the apron problem pass after advice from the boatyard, although he was able to see the breast hook. However the deck is very obvious and was discovered when the boatyard owner was having tea and put his fingers through. The fact that it is an old boat is irrelevant, the survey cost around £500 and I deserve what I paid for. I am committed to the project as it is a Little Ship, in fact the last Little Ship to get away apparently. If Rommel couldn't have her some half witted 'surveyor' wont either.And yes he purports to be a member of all the professional bodies. I shall email in the morning and report back promptly.

 

[Tranona]

You have had good advice so far. Sit down, take deep breath and be prepared for probably a long drawn out process. Hopefully the surveyor carries insurance as it means you will probably end up dealing with his insurance company, which removes the personal element.

The first thing is to identify where his report is different from the report that you have from the boatyard. You are effectively setting their expert knowledge against his so you need to be factual and present him with your case and ask for his comments. Hopefully he will respond by coming to see the boat and may recognise he has made a mistake and hand it over to his insurance company.

Equally, he may decide to refute your evidence and then you have to decide how to move on. If he is a member of a professional body they will have an arbitration process and you should try to get a negotiated settlement. The next stage if that does not work is to get your own survey to support your claim for loss. This, of course can get expensive, so at each stage you need to assess the cost and potential gains of taking it further.

Difficult to predict where things go, but it is important to get his attention with a well presented case and see what happens.

 

[Paddingtonbear]

Thanks for all your comments.
As promised my email to the 'surveyor' edited to save his embarrassment.

Dear Sir
You undertook a Pre-Purchase Survey on the Dunkirk Little Ship
Following this survey, we followed your advice and we went ahead and
purchased the boat albeit at a reduced cost. The boat was immediately
moved from its mooring near xxxxxx to xxxxxxxxxyard at xxxxxxxx
where we had organised for the repairs suggested by you were
to take place. They had previously done substantial repairs to the boat
and therefore were familiar with it, just as you were, having previously
done a survey for the vendor when he purchased the boat. The boat was
lifted out on arrival and has been in their shed ever since.

I am sorry to say that your survey has proved somewhat less than helpful.
The amount of planking required, especially on the top sides was far in
excess of the amount you noted in your report/conversation with us.
However, on the advice of the boatyard, we were prepared to accept that it
was 'just one of those things'. When the rotten planks at the bow were
released, the apron showed substantial signs of decay,and had to be
replaced. Again I was tempted to contact you to seek some redress but was
again dissuaded as the boatyard again thought that it would have been hard
for you to have seen this damage, although having now spoken with 2 wooden boat specialists, it is clear that rot doesnot exist in isolation and
at the very least they feel that my attention should have been drawn to the
possibility of damage to the framing, all the more so given the very wormy
and rotten breast hook that you did note, albeit wrongly noting its
position in your report apparently.

However as the hull is now substantially complete the yard turned their
attentions to the front deck and which had shown some signs of rot
adjacent to the wheel shelter. On inspection by xxxxxx, it was
evident that the front deck and the deck beams are substantially rotten,
so much so that he could put his fingers through it. It is clear that this
rot has not just occurred but was substantially present at the time of
your survey. The deck needs total replacement of both the deck and the
beams and I shall be seeking redress from you for the cost of this work. I
sought your advice as I knew absolutely nothing about wooden boats and you
were aware of this at the time and I feel greatly let down.

You are able to inspect the boat and talk with xxxxxx at their yard
at your cost should you so wish. Their contacts are as follow

 

[oldfatgit]

Fine, you have put the ball into his court, but I feel that you have left things a little open. Yes you are greatly let down but what do you want? From past studies, 12 years ago now, most people who have had a bad experience with a service provider are after:

• An acknowledgement that the customer is disappointed and that he supplier takes the matter seriously.
• A recognition or acknowledgement of the service failure.
• Offer of a fair fix and sometimes
• Some form of value added remuneration.

This is the kind of thing you should be aiming at.

Therefore perhaps you could say "You will understand that I am very disappointed with the quality of your survey report on which I was depending to enable me to cost the purchase and restoration of this important little ship. I now find that I am badly out of pocket as the restoration will both take longer and cost more than I anticipated. Please can I ask you to contact me regarding this matter."

You may wish to ask that he meet with you (probably best but make clear notes and confirm the outcome by e-mail) or restrict discussion between you to e-mail correspondence only.

Hope this helps.

 

[Paddingtonbear]

Here is his response, it would seem it is all a complete waste of time and money, the survey means nothing. What now? Put a contract out?:=D

Dear Mr. xxxx I am sorry to hear about some of the rot that has been
found while restoring Singapore. It is often the case when a vessel is opened
up for restoration that defects that were not possible to see come to light.
That's why I always clearly state in the Report that it must be stressed
that further defects may be found during the course of opening up for
restoration and I cannot inspect woodwork or other parts of the structure which
were covered, (ie decks in fibreglass), unexposed and inaccessible and am,
therefore, unable to report that any such parts of these structures were
free from defect.

I am unable to comment any further.

 

[Chrissie]

Was the wooden deck covered? And if it was what was it covered with? Are the deck beams rotting on the face to be seen or only under the deck planking?

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Sounds like you need to be taking lots of photographs of the newly discovered problems.

If they were visible and clearly accessible but he missed them then he is at fault. If they were hidden behind sound timber then it may well be that you have no recourse.

 

[oldfatgit]

If all you say is true, his reply is aimed at closing the matter down. In which case you have 2 choices; continue to tackle the surveyor or give in. If the former you need not yet consider engaging experts and lawyers. If the boat yard are with you then you can write back along the lines of

"I am sorry but I cannot accept your last message, the problems would have been, in the opinion of ???????? who has the following credentials (insert expertise here) obvious to a diligent surveyor. Given that fact I would like you to meet with me (or my representative) and consider your position regarding the damage found."

You may consider, at this stage, engaging another (more reputable) surveyor. In which case and armed with his report I'd advise that you speak to a trading standards officer who can simply speak to the surveyor putting your case for you and asking some hard questions.

Next would to be to approach any professional body the surveyor belongs to. They may have an arbitration process.

Finally you may wish to engage a lawyer if you have had no satisfaction from the above. The important thing is to exhaust all other routes before going the legal one.

Food for thought.

 

[Paddingtonbear]

Surely the point about the deck being covered is a red herring as it was so rotten that the yard owner put his fingers through, he did not have to see it although you apparently could, but you could touch it. We are not here talking about something like the apron which you are physically unable to see. Again the point about the beams is that if the deck is rotten so it is likely there is a chance that the beams will be also. During my working life I worked for English Heritage restoring old buildings, not so far away from what we are doing here, with some of the same problems and it was NEVER the case that where there was wet or dry rot, the supporting framing etc. was not affected in some way. I say again what is the point of having a survey if all that gets reported on is what you or I can see, you don't need to be a 'surveyor' for that. What you have a surveyor for is so that he can use hisor her training and experience to 'read' the boat for problems. This is what this idiot has signally failed to do. I could see there was rotten planks, the cost and the what to do about it was his job.

 

[Paddingtonbear]

The deck was covered with fibreglass btw., from new apparently. All of this is leaving aside the fact that this surveyor carried out the survey in a way not recommended. The boat was not chocked up on the hard but suspended on a forklift on strops. I only discovered this two days ago when in conversation with a wooden boat specialist surveyor. This is apparently very much frowned upon. He also used a large part of the former survey in the body of our report which I only discovered when the Broker passed on all the previous owners paper work. We have bought 5 boats in the last 10 years and have had surveys on only 2, the 2 cheapest!!. and I have just finished restoring a 72' riveted steel working boat, so I am neither a wuss nor stupid but I just don't know about wooden boats.......but I am learning :=D