What they don't tell you about production boats

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

I dont have a problem with old boats needing work. The point of the video was that we all know old boats have problems but the suggestion is that modern boats are better. They are made in modern factories and some suggest on this forum that they are superior to older designs. I am not sure this is the case. The first video shows what happens when a modern boat with a grid hits the bottom hard. This kind of failure is unique to modern boats. Grids held on by glue and not laminated is a cost cutting solution. The second video shows another application of glue where laminating would have been superior. These faults could not exist in older designs simply because they didnt have grids or saildrives. Modern construction techniques may build you a boat in three days but it doesnt make it better than older designs that cost more to construct. You could spend weeks arguing the definition of better. We all have different requirements out of sailing so it is no surprise that we sail different boats. It would be interesting to see how modern boats fare over the years. I guess if they dont hit the bottom too often they will be just fine?

The problem with the "Grid" design is the Manufacturing method (bonding the grid to hull) rather than the design itself. The Grid structure is very efficient and suitable for yacht structures. In the near future I hope to see a much more progressive "Grid Space" Structural design for Yachts, to provide balanced flexibility and rigidity where is needed in the hull.

 

[Bobc]

What a good way to end this discussion.

It's so much more pleasant and civilised here than it is in the Lounge.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Another good read is the series of articles that Mike, the yard manager at Harbour Marine Services wrote about repairs in the yard.

Did you read the one by Mike about the Bavaria that clipped the harbour wall at Southwold ? The damage looked superficial at first, but it was then discovered that the deck to hull joint had opened up for several feet either side of the actual impact, due to them being stuck together with no through bolting. The problems were further compounded by linings and joinery all being stuck together, so no easy way to access the inside of the join to repair it.

Sticking liners and joinery together isn't exclusive to Bavarias, all modern production boat builders do it so some degree, even low volume builders do it. It just makes future repairs and updates difficult, some of these boats will be riddled with extra holes and "inspection" hatches in years to come, when holes have to be cut into joinery and liners to replace cabling, pipework etc.

Older boats were built by men running up and down ladders, so another man can run up and down a ladder 20 years later to make repairs and updates, without having to cut holes in the boat. If carefully thought out, joinery can be glued in place, by fitting ducting and/or inspection hatches. But it seems that if doing so costs a few £s they don't get fitted. The owner will have to pay the price later, in terms of higher repair/maintenance costs and more and more extra holes.

I think that they should all be putting the basic hull together properly. Hull to deck joints, grids, sail drive housings etc should all be properly glassed in.

 

[Bobc]

Did you read the one by Mike about the Bavaria that clipped the harbour wall at Southwold ? The damage looked superficial at first, but it was then discovered that the deck to hull joint had opened up for several feet either side of the actual impact, due to them being stuck together with no through bolting. The problems were further compounded by linings and joinery all being stuck together, so no easy way to access the inside of the join to repair it.

Sticking liners and joinery together isn't exclusive to Bavarias, all modern production boat builders do it so some degree, even low volume builders do it. It just makes future repairs and updates difficult, some of these boats will be riddled with extra holes and "inspection" hatches in years to come, when holes have to be cut into joinery and liners to replace cabling, pipework etc.

Older boats were built by men running up and down ladders, so another man can run up and down a ladder 20 years later to make repairs and updates, without having to cut holes in the boat. If carefully thought out, joinery can be glued in place, by fitting ducting and/or inspection hatches. But it seems that if doing so costs a few £s they don't get fitted. The owner will have to pay the price later, in terms of higher repair/maintenance costs and more and more extra holes.

I think that they should all be putting the basic hull together properly. Hull to deck joints, grids, sail drive housings etc should all be properly glassed in.

A bit like modern cars. The manufacturer is designing the build methods to keep the costs down, and as the first owner typically only keeps the boat for 5 years, they're not that fussed about what happens in 20 years time.

 

[Stemar]

I'm reminded of an artic;le about a boat in one of the yottie comics several years ago. The propulsion unit - engine, gearbox and sail drive was fitted and the lid dropped on top, leaving no way to replace the saildrive seal, which needs to be done every seven years, without serious use of an angle grinder. The dealer was asked about this. "Our buyer never keep their boats for that long, Sir"

 

[dunedin]

Agree with most of that, but I think you'll be surprised at how many liveaboard there are on production yachts. A couple we know well are liveaboard on their Bavaria 37 (currently in Sicily), I know another couple also in Sicily on a Bavaria 38, another couple currently in Northern Ireland on a Bavaria 36, an other couple in Crete on their Bavaria 46. There are lots of them out there.

Spot on.

And let’s not forget that charter boats probably get much harder and frequent use (and abuse) than many liveaboards, as the latter rightly often spend long periods in a location and tend to be more caring about how they use their boat.
(Like the old adage that the fastest car over a rough track is a hire car!)

How many threads now seem to end in the “IP is best” mode these days (a view that I don’t concur with, having seen their underwater profile, which looks like the designer forgot to design it)

 

[Baggywrinkle]

What they don't tell you about production boats is that they are actually very good value for money and do exactly what it says on the tin. .... or that there are thousands of them plying the oceans, seas and cruising grounds of this world with extremely happy crews on board.

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

What they don't tell you about production boats is that they are actually very good value for money and do exactly what it says on the tin. .... or that there are thousands of them plying the oceans, seas and cruising grounds of this world with extremely happy crews on board.

+1

 

[rotrax]

Spot on.

And let’s not forget that charter boats probably get much harder and frequent use (and abuse) than many liveaboards, as the latter rightly often spend long periods in a location and tend to be more caring about how they use their boat.
(Like the old adage that the fastest car over a rough track is a hire car!)

How many threads now seem to end in the “IP is best” mode these days (a view that I don’t concur with, having seen their underwater profile, which looks like the designer forgot to design it)

I prefer to think Bob Johnson looked at his potential market - in fact I know he did - and made very concious decisions to make his boats as suitable as possible.

For example, AFAIK, all Island Packets can safely navigate the US Intercoastal Waterway. All are shallow draught enough and all masts are low enough to allow this.

It is estimated that 50% more IP's were sold because of this feature. Shrewd move.

The design constraints the shallow draught bought were mitigated to some extent by heavy lead ballast.

The other thing I like to think Bob Johnson did was to design a vessel where the keel could not become detatched, or heaven forbid, damage an internal grid.

All boats are a compromise, many owners and potential owners take these compromises into account when choosing.

As others have said, all that REALLY matters is how happy they are with their choice.

Also, as in our case, how First Mate is happy with our choice.

She is very happy, so all in the garden is rosy................................................?

 

[Caer Urfa]

I hit a rock at slightly over 6kts whilst motoring in my Hanse. 311. I was thrown forward as the boat stopped dead. When lifted out of the water the insurance surveyor could find absolutely no damage whatsoever. So Hanse yachts are quite strong in the keel area.
But it has to be said that if one is going to treat the boat like a dodgem car one is going to have to expect damage.
If one wants to see a series on the repair of a yacht that had keel damage then the one by Expedition Evans is worth a look. The work to repair the Beneteau is really extensive.

100% agree with you when you look at what they found on Expedition Evans on the Beneteau when they stripped her down to the bilges and look how it had been built I would not have one if you give it to me

Those two on expedition evans deserve all the luck as they sure put some serious time into the repairs for a couple of amateurs which was twice as good as the boat was original built and it was noted Beneteau did little to help them

 

[Laminar Flow]

Did you read the one by Mike about the Bavaria that clipped the harbour wall at Southwold ? The damage looked superficial at first, but it was then discovered that the deck to hull joint had opened up for several feet either side of the actual impact, due to them being stuck together with no through bolting. The problems were further compounded by linings and joinery all being stuck together, so no easy way to access the inside of the join to repair it.

Sticking liners and joinery together isn't exclusive to Bavarias, all modern production boat builders do it so some degree, even low volume builders do it. It just makes future repairs and updates difficult, some of these boats will be riddled with extra holes and "inspection" hatches in years to come, when holes have to be cut into joinery and liners to replace cabling, pipework etc.

Older boats were built by men running up and down ladders, so another man can run up and down a ladder 20 years later to make repairs and updates, without having to cut holes in the boat. If carefully thought out, joinery can be glued in place, by fitting ducting and/or inspection hatches. But it seems that if doing so costs a few £s they don't get fitted. The owner will have to pay the price later, in terms of higher repair/maintenance costs and more and more extra holes.

I think that they should all be putting the basic hull together properly. Hull to deck joints, grids, sail drive housings etc should all be properly glassed in.

The furniture in many designs is not just there for sitting/sleeping/cooking on, it also often there to stiffen the shell and is/was/should be tabbed to the hull if that is the case.

The use of grids or floors to support keel loads is a perfectly legitimate technology. However, simply gluing them down and with a very thick glue joint with little or no tensile properties is poor practice and defeats the whole point of having a grid in the first place. Classification societies, such as ABS, are quite specific about how such floor/grids are to be proportioned and attached.

I do not buy the argument that the loads on a keel in a grounding cannot be fully quantified. It can be done by choosing a worst case scenario (strike at keel tip, fraction of a second from impact to full stop, full cruising displacement and min. hull speed). I like to hope the folk that design the planes I get into to visit my boat put in a bit more engineering effort into it than some yacht designers apparently do.

The idea that the entire grid come lose as some strange form of intended crash zone is concerning; the fact that, as in the original vlogger's case, the shell was fractured, though not punctured, shows that the whole incident was a near run thing and could have just as easily ended in sinking and the loss of life. More over, the damage occurred precisely as simple analytical observation would have predicted and that is a clear indication of poor design, poor execution or both.

I have talked to a number of yard owners over the years who are quite concerned about resting boats on their ever shorter and keels as they store them ashore, especially when they can see a visible deflection in the hull with just the naked eye. How such a structure might fair in an accidental grounding is easy to imagine. It is one thing for the brands to advertise with the better performance of advanced and more slender keel design, but these also require a different level of engineering and greater care in production.

I fully agree with your last statement.

 

[pvb]

I have talked to a number of yard owners over the years who are quite concerned about resting boats on their ever shorter and keels as they store them ashore, especially when they can see a visible deflection in the hull with just the naked eye. How such a structure might fair in an accidental grounding is easy to imagine. It is one thing for the brands to advertise with the better performance of advanced and more slender keel design, but these also require a different level of engineering and greater care in production.

Most new AWBs bought in the UK arrived here by road on a low-loader, sitting on their keels, with struts to give lateral support. My boat rumbled its way on a low-loader for 750 miles, without sustaining damage.

 

[roblpm]

I wonder if this whole thread will be moot in about another ten years as there just won't be many non awbs to choose from? I want to go sailing. Not renovate a 40 year boat. My ideal boat at the moment would be a Starlight 35. But there aren't any on sale. Nor a Westerly Ocean 33. Etc. So then I start looking at Hanse 341, Elan Impression 434 etc which are actually available......... I don't think I want to go older than mid 90s.

 

[geem]

Most new AWBs bought in the UK arrived here by road on a low-loader, sitting on their keels, with struts to give lateral support. My boat rumbled its way on a low-loader for 750 miles, without sustaining damage.

On air suspension??

 

[geem]

I wonder if this whole thread will be moot in about another ten years as there just won't be many non awbs to choose from? I want to go sailing. Not renovate a 40 year boat. My ideal boat at the moment would be a Starlight 35. But there aren't any on sale. Nor a Westerly Ocean 33. Etc. So then I start looking at Hanse 341, Elan Impression 434 etc which are actually available......... I don't think I want to go older than mid 90s.

I dont think I want to go younger than mid 90s. We all want different things out of our boats. I have done 27,000nm in my 40 year old boat in the last 6 years. Mind you when I bought her she was only 32?

 

[Chae_73]

I wonder if this whole thread will be moot in about another ten years as there just won't be many non awbs to choose from? I want to go sailing. Not renovate a 40 year boat. My ideal boat at the moment would be a Starlight 35. But there aren't any on sale. Nor a Westerly Ocean 33. Etc. So then I start looking at Hanse 341, Elan Impression 434 etc which are actually available......... I don't think I want to go older than mid 90s.

c-yacht
x-yacht
najad
ovni
finngulf
discovery
rustler
contest
etc? all still making boats at present.

edit: I do agree that new boats below 38' are getting fewer.

 

[Concerto]

I have tried to not contribute as I am not a lover of the grid system. The idea of bonding the matrix solely to the hull with a rigid adhesive seems mad. My fear is that too much emphasis is placed by accountants to build as cheaply as possible. Although keel matrix bonded in have been used for several decades as part of the drive to build to a "just" adequate standard, I still feel there will be an increasing number of matrix failures. On the other hand you have to admire the automation that is use to create the original moulds, cutting the mat to shape, and cut openings for windows and fittings. We also have to look at the Recreational Craft Directive and realise it really does not set any particular high standrds for structural integrity of the hull. Too many people new to yachting seem to think this has raised standards, in my opinion there were too many manufacturers pressing for the lowest minimum to keep boats cheap and like an almost a disposable asset. Comments about longer term maintenance being difficult for subsequent owners being dismissed as not the builder's problem is so wrong.

Many of the modern designs do satisfy many customers with roomy accomodation that is definitely designed for being comfortable whilst in in harbour. However many are not what a traditionalist like me would call a good sea boat. This covers things like a relaxed ride in rougher water compared to a bouncy ride and slamming, how easy is it to use the loo (especially for ladies), handholds within the cabin and being free from water slap whilst anchored, moored or berthed. A lot of the mass produced designs are designed to sail flatter, but the ballasting is so light and more reliant on form stability, that the sail plan is a lot reduced compared to older designs. My Fulmar has a very tall mast, taller than normal as it is ¾ rigged, but at only 32ft LOA it is far taller than modern 32 footers and frquently taller than modern 36 to 38 ft yachts. At the same time I regularly outsail longer yachts, but that could be due to their poor ability to maximise their performance, so many of them comment I have a fast boat.

In the 40 years since my Fulmar was designed there have been a lot of improvements that make sailing easier. Having all halyards and controls led aft, usually in recessed channels rather than across the deck. Having sizeable toilet compartments with a shower is no longer a luxury. Fridges, freezers and microwaves make the galley almost like a floating home from home. There have also been improvements in some of the materials used like the resin, kevlar, carbon fibre and woven mat. The introduction of the sail drive makes fitting an engine a lot quicker than a shaft drive. The swim platform with walk through transom can make it easier to board for a dinghy or if you go swimming.

The trend of increasing beam being brought further aft certainly increases hull volume, but the downside has meant twin rudders have to be fitted to retain control as the stern lifts as the yacht heals due to the lack of buoyancy forward. This now adds the problem that you can no longer use prop wash to help berth a boat. One solution to increase control is the fitting of bow thrusters. The increase in freeboard has 2 problems, firstly the wind can catch the boat wholst berthing and secondly makes berthing stern to almost essential in a marina as you need a ladder to step down on a finger pontoon.

What people can get buying a new yacht is certainly looking like good value compared to say 40 years ago. From my view point I feel they are built to a price rather than a standard - purely because the RCD is not strong enough. There certainly needs to be improvements for structural integrity of the hull to protect the occupants if it runs aground at full speed.

Would I really want to buy a new yacht? Sorry, but I have to say no.

Returning to the video at the start of this discussion. Listening to the owner discussing the problem with his yacht, I have to query his level of knowledge of boats. He bought a boat he could not afford and needed to charter it to pay part of his bills. He talks of the kitchen, not the galley. Some of his other comments are either woolly or just shows he knows very little about how his boat was built and the materials used. He relies of what the repairers are telling him. I feel he is brave to show the repair to his boat. I just hope it does not come back to haunt him at sometime in the future. I remember an other owner who had a problem with poor quality of the hull construction of a Hazar 30 and the UK agent would not help, neither did the yard. He had a very fully detailed web site with his problem, but later this was cut down heavily and now has been completely removed. No doubt the video will be removed in the future when the owner realises how it will affect his chartering and eventually selling further in the future.

 

[roblpm]

c-yacht
x-yacht
najad
ovni
finngulf
discovery
rustler
contest
etc? all still making boats at present.

edit: I do agree that new boats below 38' are getting fewer.

But I think the purchase price of these new or used say up to 20 years old is radically different to the inflation adjusted price of the boats that people are talking about say like the fulmar above.

What is a pauper to do. I suggest it was easier to be a pauper 20 years ago if you wanted a sub 20 year old non AWB?

 

[roblpm]

I dont think I want to go younger than mid 90s. We all want different things out of our boats. I have done 27,000nm in my 40 year old boat in the last 6 years. Mind you when I bought her she was only 32?

Exactly my point. The costs of buying a now 40 year boat are escalating I would suggest. So maybe 1995 is the perfect year! ?

 

[Rappey]

I wonder if this whole thread will be moot in about another ten years as there just won't be many non awbs to choose from?

Much longer than 10 years. As long as the hull, deck and keel are good the rest can be replaced when needed keeping the boat going.