What safety flares should I have for coastal sailing

[[163233]]

You really do not get it do you .... have you ever seen how bright a White Flare is ? Even if you are not looking at it ... the amount of cast light is HUGE compared to a hand held torch .....
The Flare's light will reflect of any metalic object around the other guys ... it is THAT STRONG ..

Suggest you do a little detective work about how good white flares are before you start thinking a torch is as good !!

I have set flares off. Not whites because I don't have any, but yes, they are very bright.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this. I'll worry about it, when I have the combined problems of a disabled engine, disabled sails, invisible lights, and an impending collision with a boat that isn't looking where he's going enough to see a spotlight, isn't maintaining a VHF watch, has no radar, or AIS but would see a flare go off.

That day I concur will no doubt be my downfall. Unless I just use a red instead.

 

[Kukri]

Comment deleted. I want nothing more to do with this subject.

 

[Refueler]

Horse to water comes to mind.

Lets use a real tale that I personally was part of.

Camels Head Fire Station Plymouth.

Fire Fighting Advanced Course.

All morning sitting in classroom listening to Fire Instructor - while the mock ship in the yard is starting to glow !! from the fire they've set.
Afternoon - we are given the job of entering ... fighting fire ... find 4 bodies.

Took us all afternoon but finally we had the fire out ... but only 3 bodies. Then we were told 4th was behind the door we'd used to get in ... basically we'd pushed the guy aside by the door swing.

The Instructors laboured various points to us about checking everywhere ... but there was one that is relevant to this thread :

Use whatever means necessary to get a person / animal out - even if they suffer injuries as a result of getting them out - THEY ARE ALIVE.

That to me sums up flares red ... white .... the idea is to show Distress (Red) ... or to Warn (White) ..... you may suffer burnt deck .. hands ... but at end of day ... you most likely will be alive because of them.
You can have a completely wet flare - it will work. Wet torch ?? Sorry my life is worth more than a few quid on a flare saved.

Yes I come from a Merchant Navy Background ... where SOLAS is still still an important part of life at sea. Flares are part of it. Agreed that White Flares are not - BUT they are a recognised Warning Signal on the seas ...

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I doubt they'd see a flare either if they were that incompetent.
The torch does at least stay on for more than a couple of minutes.

No one is suggesting you dont have a torch. My long beam torch is by helm station along with a white flare.

But having been illuminated by a worried cruise ship, what large vessels regard as bright, is somewha more than my battery powered thing can manage. With all their lights on I doubt they would see my mere torch

 

[[163233]]

I don’t like being called a liar. And I think the OP got his answer within the first five posts.

I don't think I did call anyone a liar did I?

I used to sail with my dad in the 80's and the VHF was awkwardly safe below and a smidge flakey, the torches absolutely sucked as did the nav lights, and you had nothing to tell you what was coming. Sure back then white flares were worth the money, but on that boat the flares were locked away in a locker and got gradually buried like they do over time. A bloody big torch would have been used a lot, and would have stayed on top and to hand.

Horse to water comes to mind.

It's true, you just don't get it. Which are you more likely to use first? The torch or the white flares?
Do you need a white? Or could you just use a red anyway?
Most of these situations described, it's fair to say that there is an imminent danger to life or the vessel, so it is similarly appropriate.

No one is suggesting you dont have a torch.

I didn't think anyone did suggest such a thing. I do hope people understand that a good, high quality torch is more important and more useful than white flares.

I know some people can spend a fortune on everything, and sure, if you want a gold plated response, then have some white flares in the cockpit to hand in a water tight sealed container. That's great, if you need to make a choice about what you spend money on then I wouldn't worry about white flares, because you could always use a torch or a red instead. I'm not saying they're bad, just that I would spend the money on a better torch before I contemplated a white flare.

Actually some of these scenarios, I'd want a TOW launcher, but the regs would be a right pain.

 

[duncan99210]

This is just an observation on the sheer quantity of light output by a white flare versus a torch. I’ve found a torch on Amazon (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sidiou-Group-Searchlight-High-power-Flashlight/dp/B009YVYFES) which one of the reviews describes as a “steamer scare. It’s output is specified as 10,000 lumen.
Ikaros sells white marker flares which they specify as having an output of 10,000 candela (link is here Handheld flares – Ikaros).
The relationship between lumens and candela is given here as being 12.57 lumens = 1 candela (Candela vs. Lumen: What is the Difference? | Shine Retrofits Lighting Blog). So, if we convert the output of the flare into lumens, we get a figure of 125,750 lumens. In other words over twelve times the output of the torch. And that’s not in a tight beam it’s effectively over a hemispherical volume. Why’s that important? Because the light illuminates an area to a greater degree than even the aimed, narrow beam of the torch.
That‘s why a flare will attract the attention of the crew of a vessel in a way that a radio call or torch won’t.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

This is just an observation on the sheer quantity of light output by a white flare versus a torch. I’ve found a torch on Amazon (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sidiou-Group-Searchlight-High-power-Flashlight/dp/B009YVYFES) which one of the reviews describes as a “steamer scare. It’s output is specified as 10,000 lumen.
Ikaros sells white marker flares which they specify as having an output of 10,000 candela (link is here Handheld flares – Ikaros).
The relationship between lumens and candela is given here as being 12.57 lumens = 1 candela (Candela vs. Lumen: What is the Difference? | Shine Retrofits Lighting Blog). So, if we convert the output of the flare into lumens, we get a figure of 125,750 lumens. In other words over twelve times the output of the torch. And that’s not in a tight beam it’s effectively over a hemispherical volume. Why’s that important? Because the light illuminates an area to a greater degree than even the aimed, narrow beam of the torch.
That‘s why a flare will attract the attention of the crew of a vessel in a way that a radio call or torch won’t.

As both flare and torch battery produce power by chemical reaction, which generates heat then for a torch to produce as much energy as a flare it would need to get pretty hot. Of course a torch with LED concentrates on light not heat out put so is optically more efficient but I note my torch batteries get only very slightly warm in use and output would need to increase several magnitudes before I wanted gloves to hold it.

 

[Stemar]

I don't get the argument that a flare is better to wake up a dozy ship because it spreads its light all round. Personally, I'd rather have a torch 5% of the brightness, but with a concentrated beam. The intensity of the light that actually makes it through the bridge windows would be higher. I'm not talking about a pocket torch here, but a proper steamer scarer, something like this

https://www.amazon.co.uk/High-power...ywords=led+searchlight&qid=1589362620&sr=8-22

I also reckon it's at least as waterproof as a flare, and I can make it even more noticeable by waving it so it flashes into the bridge of SS Dozydrunk.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I don't get the argument that a flare is better to wake up a dozy ship because it spreads its light all round. Personally, I'd rather have a torch 5% of the brightness, but with a concentrated beam. The intensity of the light that actually makes it through the bridge windows would be higher. I'm not talking about a pocket torch here, but a proper steamer scarer, something like this

YOMER Rechargeable CREE LED Searchlight Handheld Spotlight High-Power 9000 Lumens Waterproof Flashlight Super Bright Work Light Torch Lantern 15000 mAh Power Bank: Amazon.co.uk: Sports & Outdoors

I also reckon it's at least as waterproof as a flare, and I can make it even more noticeable by waving it so it flashes into the bridge of SS Dozydrunk.

Well my white flares worked after 15 years of rolling round locker, and I doubt any battery would hold up that long. I take your point about focused beam but as for accurately aiming at bridge of ship approaching me in fog as you sail along single handed- best of luck.

 

[duncan99210]

I don't get the argument that a flare is better to wake up a dozy ship because it spreads its light all round. Personally, I'd rather have a torch 5% of the brightness, but with a concentrated beam. The intensity of the light that actually makes it through the bridge windows would be higher. I'm not talking about a pocket torch here, but a proper steamer scarer, something like this

https://www.amazon.co.uk/High-power...ywords=led+searchlight&qid=1589362620&sr=8-22

I also reckon it's at least as waterproof as a flare, and I can make it even more noticeable by waving it so it flashes into the bridge of SS Dozydrunk.

I refer you to my post #126. The output of that torch is 9000 lumens. Compare that to the 127,500 lumens ourput of a white flare.

 

[[70521]]

My final two words on the matter:

Peripheral Vision

 

[boomerangben]

Here’s a few thoughts. DSC and VHF radios rely on the antenna being more or less vertical. If you are aground in a fin keeler on a falling tide, your radio will have a much reduced range. In many sheltered anchorages, you might not have line of sight with the mast straight up. I have spent many an hour searching for sources of red flares. They do work better than some on here would believe, but of course are not a definite means of raising the alarm.

I have no experience of LED flares, but can’t imagine they are much use during the day. I would be concerned that they are not visible to the night vision equipment used on SAR helicopters as many coloured LEDs are not visible on devices. Crazy but most of those red lights you see on TV masts and wind turbines are LEDs. Almost invisible to night vision goggles.

Yachts are actually quite difficult to see when there are white caps about, especially when under power. Try it one day, wander up to a local cliff on a breezy day and look out to see how much you can see. If you are above about 200’ that is what it looks like from a helicopter.

So to me flares still have a very important role in modern signalling. Yes there are some very useful electronic aids. But the mark 1 eyeball still has a fundamental role in search and rescue. Anything that will make you standout from the environment and other vessels is still extremely useful and nothing does it better than a barrel of tar, or more usefully pyros. Plus pyros stand out to infra red and light intensifying sensors.

 

[Refueler]

This is just an observation on the sheer quantity of light output by a white flare versus a torch. I’ve found a torch on Amazon (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sidiou-Group-Searchlight-High-power-Flashlight/dp/B009YVYFES) which one of the reviews describes as a “steamer scare. It’s output is specified as 10,000 lumen.
Ikaros sells white marker flares which they specify as having an output of 10,000 candela (link is here Handheld flares – Ikaros).
The relationship between lumens and candela is given here as being 12.57 lumens = 1 candela (Candela vs. Lumen: What is the Difference? | Shine Retrofits Lighting Blog). So, if we convert the output of the flare into lumens, we get a figure of 125,750 lumens. In other words over twelve times the output of the torch. And that’s not in a tight beam it’s effectively over a hemispherical volume. Why’s that important? Because the light illuminates an area to a greater degree than even the aimed, narrow beam of the torch.
That‘s why a flare will attract the attention of the crew of a vessel in a way that a radio call or torch won’t.

Thank you for searching that out ... It's what I have been banging on about but seems some cannot understand it.

 

[Refueler]

I don't get the argument that a flare is better to wake up a dozy ship because it spreads its light all round. Personally, I'd rather have a torch 5% of the brightness, but with a concentrated beam. The intensity of the light that actually makes it through the bridge windows would be higher. I'm not talking about a pocket torch here, but a proper steamer scarer, something like this

https://www.amazon.co.uk/High-power...ywords=led+searchlight&qid=1589362620&sr=8-22

I also reckon it's at least as waterproof as a flare, and I can make it even more noticeable by waving it so it flashes into the bridge of SS Dozydrunk.

Agreed into the bridge windows ... much as I hate to as its last thing you want to - dazzle the guys eyes ...

But not every person is looking out the window ... and that tight beam torch is only as good as someone in direct line of it seeing it.

BUT a crew working on deck even when not looking in direction of you - will notice the sudden illumination of white - its so intense and huge !

I have what we called Beam Guns on the ships ... really high powered jobs that I can go out with the dogs and see far more than your normal torch ... I've even upgraded one with a 3S LiPo battery increasing its power.

You can see the balance charge lead exiting the old charge socket.

But compared to a White Flare ???? its nowhere near.

 

[Refueler]

My final two words on the matter:

Peripheral Vision

Exactly.... and that the light is so intense - you don't even need that as the light reflecting of anything around the guys will cause them to look ...

 

[Refueler]

I don't think I did call anyone a liar did I?

I used to sail with my dad in the 80's and the VHF was awkwardly safe below and a smidge flakey, the torches absolutely sucked as did the nav lights, and you had nothing to tell you what was coming. Sure back then white flares were worth the money, but on that boat the flares were locked away in a locker and got gradually buried like they do over time. A bloody big torch would have been used a lot, and would have stayed on top and to hand.

I have both non-wired and wired beam guns on board as I do a lot of night / low light boating ... so I agree a torch has a good use on board. The higher the power the better. No-ones said not to have.

It's true, you just don't get it. Which are you more likely to use first? The torch or the white flares?

No its YOU that fails to understand the illumination difference of the two.
But of course the torch would get used first .. but believe me - as soon as I get any idea I'm wasting time with that torch - the flare is close at hand - NOT in a sealed container but just inside companionway.

Do you need a white? Or could you just use a red anyway?
Most of these situations described, it's fair to say that there is an imminent danger to life or the vessel, so it is similarly appropriate.

As I said - you just don't get it do you ... White is a WARNING ...

Using your argument - why carry a torch - just let of the Red Flare ... if that's how you read it ...

I didn't think anyone did suggest such a thing. I do hope people understand that a good, high quality torch is more important and more useful than white flares.

Who said a torch was not more useful - but there is a limit to the effectiveness of a torch and that is where the flare takes over ..

I know some people can spend a fortune on everything, and sure, if you want a gold plated response, then have some white flares in the cockpit to hand in a water tight sealed container.

No its not necessary to have in sealed container. My flares at easier to hand than any torch as they bhave dedicated pipe clips just inside companionway. Reach in - unclip and fire.

That's great, if you need to make a choice about what you spend money on then I wouldn't worry about white flares, because you could always use a torch or a red instead. I'm not saying they're bad, just that I would spend the money on a better torch before I contemplated a white flare.

Wish you luck and hope you never in a situation you wish you'd broadened your mind ...

And please stop saying use a Red instead - that just indicates lack of real understanding ..

Actually some of these scenarios, I'd want a TOW launcher, but the regs would be a right pain.

I can think of various encounters with boats that call for drastic measures ... but we sail on ...

 

[Alfie168]

So what's wrong with going down the Asian corner shop and buying a big box of Chinese fireworks and just squirting off a few entertaining rockets at any ship that is irritating you. Just use the Dan buoy holder as a launch pad and bobs yer uncle.

You might even get applause. Red / White ? Give em both in one rocket...problem solved. If anybody onshore sees a rocket..or two from seaward ....then it's 999 regardless. They don't know the difference, but they have seen "Titanic"

Torches are dangerous and could set fire to sails. I'd use a flashlight personally ( A very helpful American lady once pointed out the difference to me ). A torch is what Errol Flynn is holding in his teeth as he swings from the chandelier in a swordfight. A flashlight contains batteries.

I'd have thought you lot would have known that.

Shall we leave anchors for another day ?

 

[[163233]]

As I said - you just don't get it do you ... White is a WARNING ...
Using your argument - why carry a torch - just let of the Red Flare ... if that's how you read it ...

In the scenarios described there's an imminent threat to the boat, if the warning is so urgent you need to set off a firework then it's borderline red, at least enough that it doesn't matter.

Who said a torch was not more useful - but there is a limit to the effectiveness of a torch and that is where the flare takes over ..

Sure, you have flares strapped all over the place. Good on you.
I have never seen a white flare outside both a container and a locker on a boat, and I have been on a few boats.
I have sailed with a torch immediately to hand in the cockpit though.

This conversation became a bit skewed. I wouldn't want to put people off having white flares if they want them, there's nothing wrong with it, but you don't need them. I actually dislike them because it's something you have to regularly renew but never use. The things you use get fixed and checked, the things you don't lie forgotten in the depths of some locker.

I have to confess I wasn't aware of the ability of white flares to wake the dead behind 5mm of steel and half bottle of whisky, so I shall reconsider them.

 

[Stemar]

When I started sailing, I religiously kept a white flare in a clip near the companionway. I never came close to using it, but I rarely go out and play with the big boys, except in the Solent, where they're likely still to be awake and relatively sober. Then I realised it was a good few years out of date, so I got rid of it. Its place of honour is now taken by an LED "flare".

I know that some will be certain I'm going to die and bring disaster to the entire Solent as a direct result, but my risk assessment says I've got five different ways of giving a distress signal - DSC radio, handheld radio, two mobile phones and the flare, plus three different ways of getting out from under a ship - sails, inboard engine and the dinghy outboard, which lives on a transom bracket, ready for use.

 

[Refueler]

When I started sailing, I religiously kept a white flare in a clip near the companionway. I never came close to using it, but I rarely go out and play with the big boys, except in the Solent, where they're likely still to be awake and relatively sober. Then I realised it was a good few years out of date, so I got rid of it. Its place of honour is now taken by an LED "flare".

I know that some will be certain I'm going to die and bring disaster to the entire Solent as a direct result, but my risk assessment says I've got five different ways of giving a distress signal - DSC radio, handheld radio, two mobile phones and the flare, plus three different ways of getting out from under a ship - sails, inboard engine and the dinghy outboard, which lives on a transom bracket, ready for use.

I sailed the Solent on boats for many years ... and I agree that Solent is not a place you would expect to have a lot of use for the White Flare ... most ships are 'guarded by the Pilot Boat' who will give you short order to GTF out of the way !! If you are in difficulty - Pilot Boat will be alongside you to 'move you out of harms way' ... seen it done more than once.

But the thread only mentions Coastal ... not specific location - so we would assume safety precautions are taken appropriately.