What or where is the nastiest wind against tide situation?

Lots of wind and some wave but a walk in them park compared with the Pentland Firth.!


cardiffwave.jpg


It only lasted about 14 days plus :D


Where?????
 
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I am sure there are pretty bad places all over the world.. I lived in Durban, South Africa until I was 26 and it's where I developed my utter respect for the sea.. While not the roughest part of the SA coast line it could still get pretty nasty..

I was down in Brighton on Saturday afternoon before the worst of the storm hit, the sea was already pumping though compared to normal.. I took some video looking over the breakwater on the east side of the Marina.. When I showed my Dad his comment was "It looks just like Durban on a normal day", when I watched it again I had to admit he wasn't far off.. Actually made me appreciate just how calm and enjoyable the sea off the UK south coast generally is..
 
Sandyman said:
Having been round both a number of times I would agree :D
Waves so high & conditions so bad that its hard to explain in detail, you have to see it for yourself.
But I wouldn't recommend it :D
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So, quite a few votes for Agulhas Current/Cape of Good Hope then.... oh joy. EXACTLY what I'm just about to do!
 
phanakapan said:
So, quite a few votes for Agulhas Current/Cape of Good Hope then.... oh joy. EXACTLY what I'm just about to do!
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You could have fun between East London and Durban..... A passenger foundered there a few years ago just after sailing from SA and a BenLine container ship
had the bow knocked downwards about 15 degrees when it hit the big waves that forms around the margin of the Continental Shelf.

http://freaquewaves.blogspot.co.uk/2006/08/encounter-of-bencrauchan.html



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjTuAV036yY


The Cruachan was belting along in the dark in relatively calm seas when she hit the waves. I think these turbine ships could do around
25 knots


You could be OK keeping clear of the area around the edge of the shelf???? Either inshore or further out.
I don t think I have pictures of this area.
 
Dan

the Wharrata ( sp ?) was a big liner which disappeared off South Africa, the theory is that enormous wave troughs - not peaks - are developed by the current; an RN cruiser, HMS Edindurgh I think, also reported going into a super-trough and water breaking over the bridge a good 60' up :eek:

This is in some earlier editions of ' Heavy Weather Sailing '.
 
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Interesting, and alarming.

I wonder if somewhere like the University of Southampton has used tank-tests to look at differences between wind over static water, and wind against current. Might be illuminating.
 
dancrane said:
Just idle thoughts...

...picturing the 6-knot ebb pouring out of Chichester Harbour, meeting a sou'westerly F6. Very ugly I'd imagine, to take on that current under sail, relying on the fair wind.

Somebody here a few months back was defiantly claiming that wind-against-tide conditions are no worse than in unmoving water during wind of a strength equal to the combined speeds of the equivalent conflicting wind and tide. Sorry, I've managed to make that sound more rather than less complicated... :rolleyes:

...but I'd like to read anybody's thoughts on this, and on the worst wind-against-tide situation they've encountered.
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Interesting list of 'nasty' places, all of which have proved that say 6kts tide against 18kts of wind gives a much worst sea state than a 24 knot wind blowing over water that is not otherwise moving.

Nobody has attempted to answer the suggestion that it is a myth that wind over tide creates a wrose sea.

Clearly who ever made that comment had never met it, or been to any of the places listed! Apart from the fact that seabed topography can make a big difference such as the submerged extension of Portland Bill which creates massive turbulence - a factor in many of the places listed - it is actually well known that a serious wind over tide will reduce the wave interval, effectively compressing the waves so that the crests are much more close together. This in turn of course creates a much more violent motion in any small vessel, while a larger ship will be unable to rise to each crest, so being forced through rather than over the waves. Either of these scenarios will produce a much more dangerous sea condition than encountering ordinary wind driven waves.

Any regular Solent sailor will know the infamous 'Solent Chop' which can in a F5 or 6 almost stop a small boat in its tracks in the short steep waves generated, and make headway almost impossible without a powerful rig or engine.
 
Having sailed all over the world I can honestly say that the most scared I have ever been ie, believing that there was more than a 50% chance of not getting home, was on the Groats ferry as a teeneger coming back from my aunts in Orkney. It was one of the last ferries of the season and the guy probably should have cancelled it. As we came past lee of Stroma the boat just started going sideways, the skipper started trying to tack his way accross the firth but he REALLY struggled to get into Groats and he took four attempts. Anyone who knows John O' Groats will know its a tiny harbour entrance surrounded by rock reefs. My cousin and I had to go up to the top deck as the cabin was stinking of sick and the back deck was totally awash!
I've sailed round the Horn, Cape of Good Hope and through the Roaring 40's and in typoons and monsoons but nothing compares to the Pentland Firth. Its not just the sea state though its the fact that the poor water is filled and surrounded by jaggy rocks and reefs so there is no escape or room for mistakes.
 
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oldharry said:
Interesting list of 'nasty' places, all of which have proved that say 6kts tide against 18kts of wind gives a much worst sea state than a 24 knot wind blowing over water that is not otherwise moving.

Nobody has attempted to answer the suggestion that it is a myth that wind over tide creates a wrose sea.

Clearly who ever made that comment had never met it, or been to any of the places listed! Apart from the fact that seabed topography can make a big difference such as the submerged extension of Portland Bill which creates massive turbulence - a factor in many of the places listed - it is actually well known that a serious wind over tide will reduce the wave interval, effectively compressing the waves so that the crests are much more close together. This in turn of course creates a much more violent motion in any small vessel, while a larger ship will be unable to rise to each crest, so being forced through rather than over the waves. Either of these scenarios will produce a much more dangerous sea condition than encountering ordinary wind driven waves.

Any regular Solent sailor will know the infamous 'Solent Chop' which can in a F5 or 6 almost stop a small boat in its tracks in the short steep waves generated, and make headway almost impossible without a powerful rig or engine.
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Its no myth. Though some are legendary.

Proven in test tanks long ago.
Marked on nautical Charts as overfalls. Often easly seen if you are on a headland looking out to sea.
Wind a aginst tide or current.
Shortens and steepens the sea.
Add in a sudden shoaling and it can be much worse.
Areas subject to ocean swell worse again.

To reach legendary as opposed to mearly nasty you require. Ocean swell, strong current, shoaling and strong wind opposing.
As you can see there's a lot of legendary places to avoid
 
Oh, oh, I've just thought of another one. Years ago I was heading north with the spring tide through the sound of Islay (6 - 8kt) when the wind decided to go round from the forecast F3 up my bum to F6 on the nose. The effects were horrible and spectacular - waves estimated by an outside observer (the Port Askaig lifeboat...) as 25' from trough to peak. Shudder. Yeugh.
 
From my own experience, I'd back the Pentland, just North of Stroma, I've crossed the Pentalnd several times a year for the last 20 years, only in the summer and caught with that "should I really be here feeling?".

Duncansby Head can be bad as can Noss Head, just North of Wick. Further South, Rattray head can be very uncomfortable, you can get many different swells meeting at Rattray, from the Moray Firth and from the all over the North Sea, that combined with a spring tide (flood or ebb) and a very shallow bit that extends a mile of so off the lighthouse, makes for a short and very confused sea.

I've also had an interesting experience going into Milford Haven with a big south westerly swell, a strong southerly wind and a strong ebb tide.

I sail the West Coast of Scotland now, and although I've always avoided it, the area south and west of Canna has a fearsome reputation, I've always gone round to the north of Canna to avoid it, when crossing to the Hebrides.

So lots of places where wind (or swell) over tide can cause a yacht problems,these are just some of the places where I wished I was in nice warm pub with a pint in my hands.
 
oldharry said:
Interesting list of 'nasty' places, all of which have proved that say 6kts tide against 18kts of wind gives a much worst sea state than a 24 knot wind blowing over water that is not otherwise moving.

Nobody has attempted to answer the suggestion that it is a myth that wind over tide creates a wrose sea.
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As I said before there's masses more energy in moving water than moving air. If you study the photo below, there's a wind over tide situation in the top left photo at the Stacks races off Anglesey, the yacht is against the tide. You can see the water is tumbling against the wind, because it has more energy.

Holyhead-Regatta-Poster-2013.jpg
 
My own worse personal experience is when I left Jersey and I thought I had timed it right to arrive at Le Corbiere at slack as the forecast was NW5-6. I actually arrived with wind against tide and could make v little progress bashing into what felt like walls of cocrete. My boat is no slouch to windward but max speed was barely 1 knot. I did the sensible thing and turned back, surfing at nearly double figures.
 
Jack sound Wales apparently kayakers love it! 29' jeanneau spat out after a washing machine ride!

Gironde going downstream from Pauillac coefficient 102.wind NW F6, river in spate,just one long hammering! glad to blast into port Bloc and recover.Engine stalled 3 times from tree branches.
 
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