What makes a motor sailer a motor sailer?

[BrianH]

No it becomes a boat with a wheel house. A motor sailor needs a F5/F6 ideally a F7 before it sails without mechanical assistance.

That is just so wrong. My HR94 (the only motor sailor HR ever made) sails well to windward with winds over 5 knots, at which the engine was never used. With a long keel her leeway is certainly not what I had with leaner, fin-keeled yachts of earlier years ... it took me until my 70s before I saw the light and converted.

Below sailing with the wind at 50 degrees apparent at 16.4 knots and the GPS recording boat speed as 5.7 knots. That was in the early days of my ownership, she improved a lot when I fitted in-boom reefing and a fully battened, flatter mainsail.

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[Sandy]

My apologies, but that is nonsense. Ours does 5kts in 8kts apparent wind ( 5.5 kts true) at 60 degr. 4.8kts in 12kts apparent (8kts true) at 35 degr to the wind. SA/D ratio of 17.9, CP of 0.61

I've just seen the amount of sail you need to get 5kts in 8 kts apparent!

 

[Arcady]

No it becomes a boat with a wheel house. A motor sailor needs a F5/F6 ideally a F7 before it sails without mechanical assistance.

'Fraid that's another 'rubbish' from me. I've had various motor sailers and some of them have sailed really rather well.

There's also the distinction to be made between pilothouse yachts and motor sailers. FWIW I added my pennyworth to the motorsailer FB group some months ago...
"...As far as I'm concerned, a motorsailer will have a fully functional inside helm position and it may or may not have an outside helm position. A pilothouse yacht will have an outside helm position and may have a fully functional inside helm position, or just a limited joystick/autopilot option. On a pilothouse yacht one should be able to see over the wheelhouse when helming from outside. On many motorsailers this is not possible."

It's all semantics, I know.

 

[pcatterall]

And what about the benefits of an 'in between' dog house ? Our Neptunian is often called a 'motor sailor' because she has ( the benefit) of one. But looking at most of the boats around me they all sport spray hoods which have a similar windage. At least we can hang on to our roof when going forward. Yes, with the wheel forward and under the roof you loose some sight of the main and there is less 'feel' of the wind on your chops but I reckon
The comfort benefits outweigh these issues.

 

[rotrax]

The SP is a fine boat and as with many US boats, with an interior built for fully grown, real humans. That centre cockpit, though, is a bit weird, really.
Our engine is 58hp on a displacement of 8.5t. We have found, that since upgrading our rig, we have reduced engine use by 75%. We now sail quite well in the upper third of a F2 at nearly 5kts on a close reach. In 18kts and on a reach, we are doing well over 7kts at just over 10 degr. heel. Broad reaching, we have sustained speeds of 7.8kts.
Alas, we don't have an island bed, being some 81/2' shorter, they must've cut that part off when they built her.

The centre cockpit is an unusual feature. We call ours 'the Jacuzzi'. Apparently some Yanks blocked the drains on their's and filled it with water as a cool bath! We have cushions and a boom tent and use it for relaxing in good weather. It is a useful outside space as the rear cockpit is rather small. Drinks/food are passed through the opening centre front pilothouse window.

Big Ann is a great boat - especially after all your hard work. She looks great under full sail!

We were aboard with you both in Alderney and Cherbourg a few years ago when we had Jess, our previous Island Packet.

Looking forward to perhaps catching up in Ireland later this year.

Regards to you both.

 

[BrianH]

And what about the benefits of an 'in between' dog house ? Our Neptunian is often called a 'motor sailor' because she has ( the benefit) of one. But looking at most of the boats around me they all sport spray hoods which have a similar windage. At least we can hang on to our roof when going forward. Yes, with the wheel forward and under the roof you loose some sight of the main and there is less 'feel' of the wind on your chops but I reckon
The comfort benefits outweigh these issues.

+1
My HR94 has exactly that configuration and attributes - and disadvantages that I too, was prepared to accept.

In addition to the solid wheelhouse roof, that provides not only shelter in bad weather, which can occur in the Adriatic, but acts as an essential bimini for shade that is necessary at that latitude. To completely cover the cockpit including the aft ancillary tiller position, I sometimes had the cockpit top cover in place also.

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[Caer Urfa]

It's surprising over the years just how many people you meet or read comments from people about how they dislike and criticize Motor Sailors, its also surprising 'face to face' watching them when you ask just how many 'if any' motor sailors they have ever sailed, when the truth is usually 50% have never even been on one.

No owner of a motor sailor bought their boat for speed and at best their steering is something you get to live with, what we all did buy was usually a very safe, comfortable offshore sailing boat which particularly suits the UK weather conditions. having sailed a yacht for some years before buying a motor sailor no way would I go back to sailing a yacht but guess 'everyone to their own'

 

[geem]

My apologies, but that is nonsense. Ours does 5kts in 8kts apparent wind ( 5.5 kts true) at 60 degr. 4.8kts in 12kts apparent (8kts true) at 35 degr to the wind. SA/D ratio of 17.9, CP of 0.61

What kind of leeway do you make? In my experience, unless you have an efficient keel you have the illusion of close winded sailing but in reality you can be 10-15 deg off due to leeway. We have witnessed this numerous times with Lagoon catamarans. The owners saying they can sail at 35deg to the wind. We have passed them sailing at 40 deg to the wind, when we are making a far better angle! Also, your speeds, I assume are in flat water. With your hull shape, keel configuration, the chances of making those kind of speed to windward when you have a 1m chop are unlikely.

 

[johnalison]

I have no strong feelings about motor-sailors. They are just another choice available. Among people I know, they are the first choice for men whose wives don't like sailing but are prepared to go along with their husbands' choice of recreation if their comfort is taken into account. The ones I know, such as Fishers, Nauticats and Island Packets, are capable of decent passage-making, but need to use the engine a lot more if trying to sail in company with traditional yachts. Their higher freeboard inevitably holds them up and may make them roll more, but this is the compromise they have chosen. Someone with a modern racer would probably regard my HR34 as something of a motor-sailor, but I am no more worried than the owners of M-Ss.

 

[Refueler]

Nonsense!

There may be motor-sailers like that, but mine isn't one of them.

I have a Sunrider 25 :



Heavy at 4 tons .... Perkins 4-107 at 43HP .... but she does not need engine to go to windward ... but of course she's no greyhound ...
Bristows talks of her as a 'fast safe passage maker' ......... well I'll put it down to literary licence !!



Generally regarded as a Motor Sailer .... usually on passage I have sails + 1/3rd throttle to pootle along at comfortable 5 - 5.5kts. I have had her up to 7.5kts under sail alone - but that's rare. Under engine full throttle she gets over 9kts ...

 

[LittleSister]

My bog standard LM27. Top speed under sail about 7 knots. Sails very nicely, but not close-winded.

 

[wombat88]

I've explored some small (25ft) motor sailors/sailers in detail
To me basic requirements are an enclosed wheel plus cockpit steering/dual controls (wheelhouse doors would be nice)
Good headroom near said wheel to allow steering while standing
A larger engine with a substantial three bladed prop (say at least 1hp per ft)
If that lot is in place the rest sort of sorts itself out with compromises one way or the other.

The Fisher is attractive but expensive
The Steadfast is more sailer than motor but practical
The Cox Master Mariner sails a lot better than one might think but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Mind you when they come up for sale they are cheap.
The small Colvic seems excellent if well fitted out and was probably would have been the best choice for me.
I eyed up a Hunter something (27ft?) but never got to see in detail.
Ditto Swinn Ranger.

In the end I didn't buy anything, decided I wasn't going anywhere and stuck with a dinghy and an open motor boat.

 

[LittleSister]

I've explored some small (25ft) motor sailors/sailers in detail
To me basic requirements are an enclosed wheel plus cockpit steering/dual controls (wheelhouse doors would be nice)
Good headroom near said wheel to allow steering while standing
A larger engine with a substantial three bladed prop (say at least 1hp per ft)
If that lot is in place the rest sort of sorts itself out with compromises one way or the other.

The Fisher is attractive but expensive
The Steadfast is more sailer than motor but practical
The Cox Master Mariner sails a lot better than one might think but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Mind you when they come up for sale they are cheap.
The small Colvic seems excellent if well fitted out and was probably would have been the best choice for me.
I eyed up a Hunter something (27ft?) but never got to see in detail.
Ditto Swinn Ranger.

In the end I didn't buy anything, decided I wasn't going anywhere and stuck with a dinghy and an open motor boat.

You missed out the LM24, a downsized version of the LM27. Not a great number of them in the UK, but I've seen them impressively cheap - a lot of quality boat for the price. They sensibly don't try to squeeze a forecabin in, but the saloon has a cunning arrangement creating both a sense of space and better sleeping accommodation than you'd have thought. Probably sails better than any of those in your list above except, I imagine, the Hunter.

Stretching your 25ft range a bit more there's the LM26 from the later, more modern series of LMs. This has a layout similar to LM24 above. Fairly rare in the UK, it seems, and prices likely somewhat higher than the LM24.

 

[Laminar Flow]

What kind of leeway do you make? In my experience, unless you have an efficient keel you have the illusion of close winded sailing but in reality you can be 10-15 deg off due to leeway. We have witnessed this numerous times with Lagoon catamarans. The owners saying they can sail at 35deg to the wind. We have passed them sailing at 40 deg to the wind, when we are making a far better angle! Also, your speeds, I assume are in flat water. With your hull shape, keel configuration, the chances of making those kind of speed to windward when you have a 1m chop are unlikely.

Generally speaking, as soon as the sea starts to build it will impact the windward ability of any yacht and especially ones with a shallower draft operating in the disturbed surface water. Our leeway going to weather is about 7 degr. - marginally more than other types. We can do 35 degr in, yes, flat water, but things pick up considerably if we fall off a bit. The most important part is to keep up speed to give the keel a chance to generate lift. The problem with the standard sail areas on the Watsons, and they have some of the lowest SA/D ratios of any MSs around, is that they are (to be kind) "too snug" to generate any useful drive. A 1m chop, unless some wind over tide situation, supposes a wind speed of around 15kts. In the Isselmeer, which is famous for for its short, steep chop, we managed to pretty well keep up with a sloop rigged fin keeler of a comparable size and over a distance of 10 miles; they beat us by about 500m. That was with the old rig, but new rudder/deadwood and our old 40 year-old sails. The next day we beat the same boat on a reach / broad reach and over a similar distance in a F5-6, by more than 30 minutes.
I light airs we have out-sailed a Bav 32, reaching and to our surprise, a Pogo 30, broad reach and both with just our gennies up. We passed a Jeanneaux of a similar size on a close reach in the Baltic, though I'm not sure he knew what he was doing; he started fiddling with his sails when we passed, but he never did catch up.
In 18-20kts there is no such thing as a "flat sea" in open water. Here we are doing well over 7kts. 0ver 70 miles, from the Dart to Les Hanois, Guernsey we averaged 6.8 kts and we have done 210 miles in 35 hrs. It is easy to forget that she is only 31.5' over deck on a DWL of 28'.
A long keel with considerable drag (deeper at the stern) will generate lift along it's entire length; the Delft institute did some interesting work on that.

 

[Laminar Flow]

It's surprising over the years just how many people you meet or read comments from people about how they dislike and criticize Motor Sailors, its also surprising 'face to face' watching them when you ask just how many 'if any' motor sailors they have ever sailed, when the truth is usually 50% have never even been on one.

No owner of a motor sailor bought their boat for speed and at best their steering is something you get to live with, what we all did buy was usually a very safe, comfortable offshore sailing boat which particularly suits the UK weather conditions. having sailed a yacht for some years before buying a motor sailor no way would I go back to sailing a yacht but guess 'everyone to their own'

True, we didn't buy our boat for speed, we didn't even buy her for sailing. She was to be a canal cruiser, plans change. But that is irrelevant as to her speed potential. Each CP has its own optimal speed. This is not new, Admiral Taylor figured that out at the time of the Spanish-American war. Our CW as a coefficient of 0.61, which equates to an optimum, relative speed factor of 1.25 or 6.6kts. That's pretty fast for a 28' waterline. A high CP (prismatic coefficient describes how full the ends are) makes sense for a MS, since it can use its engine to attain such speed when there is not sufficient wind. To put things simply: they were designed to go fast. Good news for all those who love to go slow: it is less detrimental to go slow with a high CP, than it isto try and go fast with a low one.
Apart from Watsons, I am not aware of any other series of motorsailers or sailboats, for that matter, with such serious steering problems. I am, however, very much "au courant" in regards to the issues with the Watson. I do not know of any production sailboat, to which owners have made as many modifications to the rudder, as the Colvic Watson and, I have collected every comment on their steering capability, or rather lack of it, I could find. If someone knows of another model that is worse, I happily stand corrected.
As a stand-on vessel we had a near-on collision with another boat, with a culminative speed of probably14kts, as we could not make a last-minute evasive maneuver, when our CW's flat, steel plate rudder stalled out and the boat kept plowing straight on. We were so close, I still have the stains in my drawers to prove it. But, so we are told, (poor) steering is something you get to live with, or not, as that may be. The steering on the Watson is abysmal, under power and sail, both under way and in port, but especially under sail and in port. The Weatherhelm is unmanagable. All these problems can be easily fixed; I have previously posted how.

 

[Laminar Flow]

The centre cockpit is an unusual feature. We call ours 'the Jacuzzi'. Apparently some Yanks blocked the drains on their's and filled it with water as a cool bath! We have cushions and a boom tent and use it for relaxing in good weather. It is a useful outside space as the rear cockpit is rather small. Drinks/food are passed through the opening centre front pilothouse window.

Big Ann is a great boat - especially after all your hard work. She looks great under full sail!

We were aboard with you both in Alderney and Cherbourg a few years ago when we had Jess, our previous Island Packet.

Looking forward to perhaps catching up in Ireland later this year.

Regards to you both.

Looking forward to that and give your wife a hug from us. A

 

[wombat88]

Forgot to mention that when I was looking I wanted something that would sit on the mud. Small LMs with bilge plates/keels are very rare.

 

[Refueler]

Liking places that many others cannot reach ... I wanted Bilge Keel ... so I could visit drying out places.



And no problem ashore ! Photo is lifting at home in to my canal.

Yes it sucks in terms of windward and on a broad reach can have a fair bit of leeway ... but the trick there is not to press her - but ease of and let her sit a bit more upright.... its a Motor Sailer !
The weather helm can be serious as well if you try pushing her ... but that's because the sail plan is not best ... in fact it's one of my 'trick questions' to any who go on her ... how to cut it back and still have speed etc ... as expected most talk about reducing main which in fact only helps a small amount ... its more the genny in reality ... roll the genny in till its not so far past the mast and she then becomes a pussy cat on the helm ... and often the speed will increase as you now don't have rudder hard over to hold her ..

Back to what is a Motor Sailer - boats like mine I think sit on the border line ... and defining a MS is often a bit of a grey area ... open for interpretation.

 

[Bajansailor]

Here is a good example of a motor (or pedal rather) sailer - and it illustrates well how effective a gaff rig can be. Imagine this flying along on a broad reach

 

[langstonelayabout]

The SP is a fine boat and as with many US boats, with an interior built for fully grown, real humans.

I just wish whoever designed my old Catalina 270 had read this.

A heads compartment suitable for 8st. contortionists. A stern cabin designed for the same people.

I once went into the stern cabin of a more recent 40' boat and had to drag my beer gut through the doorway.

It's a shame more companies don't make provision for us lardy people (from the US or UK...).