What is the smallest yacht you have come across with a generator and a watermaker?

[Zing]

In another thread you said you have (had?) two water makers and you showered and changed every day. How do you manage that on an extended passage without a generator?

Plenty of boats manage like that without generators. Especially cats, where large solar arrays are easy to install. It’s down to the power budget. I need only 3.5 kWh per day including a watermaker. The watermaker needs 110 W hr per 30 lt, so nothing much really. All is easily achieved with 1kW solar. I actually do have a generator, but hate it. It’s going as soon as I finish the solar upgrade. I am currently increasing the solar supply to way beyond what I use as the power budget is shooting up. Aircon and Starlink and soon electric cooking and a freezer.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Plenty of boats manage like that without generators. Especially cats, where large solar arrays are easy to install. It’s down to the power budget. I need only 3.5 kWh per day including a watermaker. The watermaker needs 110 W hr per 30 lt, so nothing much really. All is easily achieved with 1kW solar. I actually do have a generator, but hate it. It’s going as soon as I finish the solar upgrade. I am currently increasing the solar supply to way beyond what I use as the power budget is shooting up. Aircon and Starlink and soon electric cooking and a freezer.

You’re in a different league to many boats. There’s no way we can fit 1 kW of solar. I’m about to upgrade to 400 Watts and that’s with panels hanging outboard off the rails.

As I said, your experience is not what many people I’m surrounded by here in my current location in the Caribbean share. And I’m not in some backwater. I’m in Le Marin, Martinique which is a principle yachting hub for the Antilles. Sure there are lots of big cats but they’re vastly outnumbered by more modest monohulls. I’m in amongst perhaps two thousand boats in this cul de sac and I doubt if one in a hundred has aircon etc. Lots of solar and wind power. Lots of generators.

Is your generator noisy? Is that why you hate it? You can barely hear ours and we’re only an 11.7 metre boat.

 

[Zing]

You’re in a different league to many boats. There’s no way we can fit 1 kW of solar. I’m about to upgrade to 400 Watts and that’s with panels hanging outboard off the rails.

As I said, your experience is not what many people I’m surrounded by here in my current location in the Caribbean share. And I’m not in some backwater. I’m in Le Marin, Martinique which is a principle yachting hub for the Antilles. Sure there are lots of big cats but they’re vastly outnumbered by more modest monohulls. I’m in amongst perhaps two thousand boats in this cul de sac and I doubt if one in a hundred has aircon etc. Lots of solar and wind power. Lots of generators.

Is your generator noisy? Is that why you hate it? You can barely hear ours and we’re only an 11.7 metre boat.

It’s a good one. Onan and very quiet.

Generators break but solar doesn‘t.

Here’s what has had to be done in recent years.

Genset:

Cracked seawater pump - dezincified. Leaked and required an extensive repair to protect the electrics whilst a repair was obtained. 1 day to fix.
Overheating and boil over and a shredded impeller due to a blocked strainer. 5 hrs to fix.
Corroded heat exchanger. 1 day to fix and genset inoperative due to coolant loss for weeks waiting for parts.
No generating, bust AVR. Weeks to wait and many, any hours to diagnose and repair.
A bust main relay with 2 days of diagnosis on that one and a jury rig repair.
A broken main board rectifier. No power. Many hours lost.
loose fuel pipes. Erratic running. Hours lost.
A bust CB Failure to start, many hours of my life lost diagnosing and jury rigging.
A burnt out stop solenoid. Failure to start. Ditto.
Corroded water tank by pass pipe for seawater, coolant contaminated with seawater. Days lost and weeks for parts.
Airlock in coolant, shredded impeller. 1 day lost.
Impeller installed improperly, shredded, many hours to fix.
Countless bloody oil changes, zincs, coolant, belt adjusting etc.

Solar:
…
…

 

[john_morris_uk]

It’s a good one. Onan and very quiet.

Generators break but solar doesn‘t.

Here’s what has to be done in recent years.

Genset:

Cracked seawater pump - dezincified. Leaked and required an extensive repair to protect the electrics whilst a repair was obtained. 1 day to fix.
Overheating and boil over and a shredded impeller due to a blocked strainer. 5 hrs to fix.
Corroded heat exchanger. 1 day to fix and genset inoperative due to coolant loss for weeks waiting for parts.
No generating, bust AVR. Weeks to wait and many, any hours to diagnose and repair.
A bust main relay with 2 days of diagnosis on that one and a jury rig repair.
A broken main board rectifier. No power. Many hours lost.
loose fuel pipes. Erratic running. Hours lost.
A bust CB Failure to start, many hours of my life lost diagnosing and jury rigging.
A burnt out stop solenoid. Failure to start. Ditto.
Corroded water tank by pass pipe for seawater, coolant contaminated with seawater. Days lost and weeks for parts.
Airlock in coolant, shredded impeller. 1 day lost.
Impeller installed improperly, shredded, many hours to fix.
Countless bloody oil changes, zincs, coolant, belt adjusting etc.

Solar:
…
…

I feel your pain. I confess ours has a broken pushrod atm. We’re assured it’s the first one they’ve ever had break but the jury’s out until it proves itself. It’s under warranty so it’s just a pita atm.

 

[noelex]

Generators break but solar doesn‘t.

That has been my experience as well.

With modern solar systems it is practical to have all the luxuries (air conditioning is the only common exception) without a generator, at least on larger cruising monohulls and cats.

 

[Tranona]

Read a recent sailing review which described a 45 footer as a nice entry level boat!!! On who’s planet ??

The real planet of new boat buyers - not the planet most of us inhabit but the one that boat builders have to consider. Many new boats from the mass builders are bought for charter operations where size and number of berths takes priority. When I bought my first "big" boat in 2000 (for charter) the minimum size was 34' and I bought a 37 because it was very little more money and could be certified for 2 extra berths for charter. Most builders had boats smaller than this in their range mainly for private buyers, but most have now gone and few new designs for sub 36' have appeared in the last 5 years. Bavaria for example have a complete new range of boats in the last 5 years, all 40' or over. In the "premium" sector builders have rarely strayed below 38' for the last 20 years except for performance cruise racers. 40-50' is the main market.

The main reason more modest size boats do not sell is price. I bought a Bavaria 33 in 2015. It cost Just over £100k and was (almost) the cheapest on the market. A Hanse 325 was cheaper but only because it was going out of production and on "end of life" offer. The current equivalent of my Bavaria, essentially the same boat and to the same spec is £180k. The upshot is that people wanting modest size boats can only look at the used market so not surprisingly prices of recent sub 40' boats have risen. I sold my 33 last spring for not much less than I paid for it.

The reality is that there are still people who have access to large amounts of capital at strategic points in their life who can afford to buy larger boats and expect the sort of features that they offer. More than 10 years of cheap money and the subsequent increase in asset values have benefitted many people in much the same way as (at least in the UK) defined benefit pensions and redundancy/early retirement and increased property prices did for a previous generation.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

You don’t say age of any vessel but surely a Bav ocean 40 say if you don’t mind the stern cabin layout night be an option. Of course the stern to mooring won’t be as good but if looking for that then a 42 cruiser Bav ? If I was planning such a trip I might be tempted to learn more about OVni lifting keel types so you can have more exploring? I was quite impressed by them when sailing around Med but maybe unknown downsides to such hull materials.

Unfortunately, the budget would result in a relatively old one, and significant other thinks they are pot ugly - no doubt they are fantastic boats, but we're more likely to end up in as new an AWB as we can find for the budget.

Sounds like you are looking for a flat not a boat

Yep, a floating flat with sea views - which suits us fine. That was basically the use case for the last one .... leisurely cruises through sun kissed islands enjoying the tranquility and just being afloat and free. Living space is a must, and a 40-45ft AWB from 2008-2015 will be more than adequate for that. I can build lee-cloths and make suitable sea berths on most AWBs, the motion of an AWB doesn't bother me or my crew at all and we will only spend 0,0001% of our time making ourselves uncomfortable on purpose. I have thrashed around in F8s in my old Bav36 with a crew of male friends because we could - nothing broke and it was a hoot - but not something I'd do on purpose with only 2 on board.

Reading this, I can't help thinking about how much sailing has changed since a review of the Snapdragon 24 described her as a capable family cruiser, and a sailing boat with a generator would be classed as a superyacht.

I started out, aged 6, on this, a Kingfisher 20+, ... family of 5 preparing for summer holidays on the West Coast of Scotland ... ... no electronics apart from an echosounder - the radio for the shipping forecast, and the RDF had their own internal batteries.

I’d try really hard to not have a generator. They break a lot. I‘d get max solar, a hard bimini and arch covered in panels then an energy recovery DC watermaker and an extra well insulated fridge. If you can get too close to 1Kw installed power you will not need a genset.

I think at least 5kva inverter not 3.

... this got me thinking .... anyone got any experience of Integrel?

 

[noelex]

... this got me thinking .... anyone got any experience of Integrel?

No personal experience, but I have seen a few boats with this system. It seems a good if very expensive and complex solution. There has been some concern expressed about the side load experienced by the engine and whether this will have a detrimental effect on engine life. I think only time will tell.

An alternative is one of the newer high power alternator options. These are more limited in power output, but you can still achieve around 2kw. If you have room for a large frame alternator this is not a very expensive option. It is much simpler with little to go wrong and no proprietary parts.

 

[Zing]

No personal experience, but I have seen a few boats with this system. It seems a good if very expensive and complex solution. There has been some concern expressed about the side load experienced by the engine and whether this will have a detrimental effect on engine life. I think only time will tell.

An alternative is one of the newer high power alternator options. These are more limited in power output, but you can still achieve around 2kw. If you have room for a large frame alternator this is not a very expensive option. It is much simpler with little to go wrong and no proprietary parts.

My Prestolite alternator is rated at 175A and at 27v is a peak of nearly 5Kw. I run it at far less than that though. It should be possible with adaption on many engines to fit two alternators to the engine and this would balance out the shaft side loads and give very high power. If that were done there would be little advantage to the Integrel system. Somewhat more efficiency probably, but at a hell of a price. There are other makes of higher efficiency alternator out there with better figures than Prestolite.

 

[t21]

No experience of integrel but lotsa folks incl me manage fine with big alternators (not that big atm tho…).
4.5kva gen means another engine solely to run a max 375A (at 12v) alternator, best avoided esp for light use in tight spaces with awkward install and maintenance.
Yanmar (maybe others?) offer Mastervolt with proven and widely available 125A options and not prohibitive to hold a spare, tho this perhaps is not at leading edge as integrel vid.
Heat must be more of an issue when that rig isn’t in a nice airy lab?

 

[noelex]

My Prestolite alternator is rated at 175A and at 27v is a peak of nearly 5Kw. I run it at far less than that though. It should be possible with adaption on many engines to fit two alternators to the engine and this would balance out the shaft side loads and give very high power. If that were done there would be little advantage to the Integrel system. Somewhat more efficiency probably, but at a hell of a price. There are other makes of higher efficiency alternator out there with better figures than Prestolite.

We do the same thing with a 175A “24v” alternator. I have derated it in the interests of reliability to produce around around 2.5 Kw.

We don’t do much motoring and solar normally keeps the batteries near full so in practice we extract little energy from the system, but it is nice to have a back up to solar (we have no generator).

This is a simple and relatively inexpensive solution.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

My Prestolite alternator is rated at 175A and at 27v is a peak of nearly 5Kw. I run it at far less than that though. It should be possible with adaption on many engines to fit two alternators to the engine and this would balance out the shaft side loads and give very high power. If that were done there would be little advantage to the Integrel system. Somewhat more efficiency probably, but at a hell of a price. There are other makes of higher efficiency alternator out there with better figures than Prestolite.

Can't find a price for Integrel .... anyone have any idea how much a system costs?

 

[noelex]

Can't find a price for Integrel .... anyone have any idea how much a system costs?

I believe the price is around $15,000.

 

[Frank Holden]

It’s a good one. Onan and very quiet.

Generators break but solar doesn‘t.

Here’s what has had to be done in recent years.



Solar:
…
…

Oh yes it does.
My first panel to break did so when hit by the boom when the mast fell down in '93.
Its mate ceased to function when 10 years old in about 2000, replaced at no charge by Solarex Australia back when Australia actually made stuff.
That replacement broke when a remarkably big bit of wet came over the stbd bow and reduced the panel - on the port quarter - to just the alloy frame in 2009. My solar array is now like the 100 year old axe.
So yes, solar can break.

 

[Sybarite]

In answer to the title, a Pogo 8.5. The whole boat was keep the boat as light as possible. So, he only carried 5 lites of water....

That's the answer : a small volume of water and then dilute as required.

 

[Kelpie]

You’re in a different league to many boats. There’s no way we can fit 1 kW of solar. I’m about to upgrade to 400 Watts and that’s with panels hanging outboard off the rails.

We've got 1200w on a 39ft mono.
200w on the foredeck.
200w on the guardwires.
The rest is on the bimini, which is made out of rigid panels. You can't fold it down of course, and to get the most power out of it you have to swing the boom to one side, but it works pretty well.

(Btw we're back down in St Anne- heading south tomorrow, all being well. Will hopefully catch up with you down the road!)

 

[Zing]

We've got 1200w on a 39ft mono.
200w on the foredeck.
200w on the guardwires.
The rest is on the bimini, which is made out of rigid panels. You can't fold it down of course, and to get the most power out of it you have to swing the boom to one side, but it works pretty well.

(Btw we're back down in St Anne- heading south tomorrow, all being well. Will hopefully catch up with you down the road!)

Well done!

 

[Stemar]

Sail Life on You Tube has an ingenious arrangement for their Solar panels. They fitted 2 X 400w panels on a transom arch, with two more that they can slide out to double their power. They say they they can only use them alongside or at anchor, but I can't see why it wouldn't be OK in calm conditions at sea.

Theirs is an all-electric boat with induction hob and all the toys, including the ability to upload YT vids from the middle of the Atlantic, so on passage, they're still having to run the engine for around an hour a day. I reckon only carrying 200l of water (IIRC) and relying on the water maker doesn't help.

 

[geem]

I have a generator and watermaker on a 36ft. Came with the boat. I don't use either but then I'm not world cruising. A generator is more trouble than a main engine and I would go solar/batteries if I wanted to make water. My water tanks are 460 litres which is extreme but useful. I would not want my water generation at the whim of a mechanical device, especially if unable to reach fresh supply.

Our generator is a Perkins. 27 years old. Made water for us with a 220v watermaker for the last 10 years. The secret is to always carry enough water in the tank for an emergency ration on a long passage. You can then have a failure of the gen or watermaker and still reach land. We have had not had this happen but made several ocean passages and many of several hundred miles without issue.
Friends have the original Perkins engine from 1986 in there boat and the original Onan generator. Still used regularly. Currently in New Zealand. Off in to the Pacific again soon. Good kits lasts if you look after it.
In my experience 220v watermakers being so much simpler than 12v models are inherently more reliable. Now with a lithium battery its easy to have two sources of energy to run the watermaker. More resilience

 

[geem]

Uma (Pearson 36) seems to have a lot of those things, but I think two couples would be the maximum in terms of berths.

https://www.youtube.com/@SailingUma

It might be worth looking for information on their watermaker setup just to see how much space they're dedicating to it. Obviously, it's an electric boat so the power setup is completely different to a normal boat. But they do have a portable petrol generator stowed away for when sunshine fails them.

They have that boat in bits. Have you seen how badly built it is?