What is the difference between a Phantom and a Squadron?

[PEJ]

I don't know much about Fairlines so what is the difference between a Phantom and a Squadron?

I read the the Phantom is "perfect for extended stays at sea, and with the luxurious facilities on-board one is sure to have a comfortable outing."

and that Squadrons are "built to be the best yachts in their class. Well-equipped, sophisticated and perfectly shaped"

What does that mean in practice?

I am trying to compare 45 to 58ft boats that are about 10 to 15 years old.

 

[[2068]]

Squadron was supposed to be the top of the range posh option for those that wanted a "Motor Yacht".
Phantom was the more practical option, for those who didn't want a gold braided jacket and crew in matching uniform.

Nowadays, the Squadron name just equates to "Flybridge".

 

[admillington]

I don't know much about Fairlines so what is the difference between a Phantom and a Squadron?

I read the the Phantom is "perfect for extended stays at sea, and with the luxurious facilities on-board one is sure to have a comfortable outing."

and that Squadrons are "built to be the best yachts in their class. Well-equipped, sophisticated and perfectly shaped"

What does that mean in practice?

I am trying to compare 45 to 58ft boats that are about 10 to 15 years old.

Two different model lines - In this era you are looking at the Phantom topped out at 50ft and the Squadron went from 52 upwards to the 74/78.

There is a lot of knowledge on the forum for each model as a number of us have owned Phantoms and Squadrons

 

[Nick_H]

It was exactly the same as the "F" and "T" designation on Sealines of the same era.

Bigger boats with more luxurious fit-outs were branded Squadrons, smaller boats with less opulent interiors were branded Phantoms. Nowadays all Fairline flybridges are Squadrons.

It related more to the size and level of luxury, than to the build quality or seakeeping, although of course bigger boats have better seakeeping AOTBE.

 

[PEJ]

Thanks for the info.

That would make this 2001 SQ55 for £215K a pretty nice boat then?

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2001/Fairline-Squadron-55-2909676/Spain#.Vz2ndfldWSo

 

[Nick_H]

Thanks for the info.

That would make this 2001 SQ55 for £215K a pretty nice boat then?

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2001/Fairline-Squadron-55-2909676/Spain#.Vz2ndfldWSo

Certainly a nice boat, and if the photos are recent then it looks well kept with some cosmetic re-fits. The 55 was nearing the end of its production run in 2001 though, so it's a bit of a dated design (eg. ladder to flybridge), and its replacement, the Sq 58, is a better boat all round, and the flybridge in particular is several leagues ahead.

I'd say £215k is a sensible asking price rather than a bargain, and you'd want to negotiate that down.

 

[MapisM]

I'd say £215k is a sensible asking price rather than a bargain, and you'd want to negotiate that down.

Having seen several similar boats, I would agree that 215k quids ain't such a bargain, in the current market.
But out of curiosity, I had a look at the link.
Am I right in remembering that there is no access to the e/r from the center boat utility area, in the Sq58?
I actually like it, and I wasn't even aware that the Sq55 had that feature...

PS: as an aside, I also like the ladder, for a very simple reason: I suppose it would be easy to remove it, throw it overboard, and be done with that.
A decent internal stair, particularly with direct access door from the walkaround, is more than enough - see Sanlorenzo, Canados etc.

 

[jfm]

That's a very nice example of 2001 sq55, which is a very nice machine generally. That has been well cared for and has nice touches like refitted tecma loos, etc.

S55 stopped production end 2003, and was on mark 3 by then. This one is mk2, meaning it has the older stlye flybr layout and ladder not stairs to flybr. I agree with mm - you will probably use the internal stairs more - I did on sq58s. Their is a door to side decks at bottom of internal stairs

This boat has the D12 engines, which is good

IIRC, all s55 have the little door from utility to engine room. Sq 58 didn't because fuel tanks were athwartships, giving quite a bit more range, something like 290nm at P speed instead of 200 ish (2800litres vs 2100 litres, iirc). I don't like this door as I would find it very claustrophobic to be in the e/r without the deck hatch open, but each to their own. Its good for daily chacks but these are electronic engines and monitor a lot of things electronically. The midships utility room is a master stroke feature in this boat and sq58, though of course you cannot have a midships owners cabin.

I don't know your budget but if it will stretch then look at early sq58, which is a great boat in its category. Starting £ 275k I guess, not sure. If this fits your budget, it looks like a very well cared for s55 with the right engines and definitely worth a closer look. Must be a contender for the best 2001-er on the market

 

[PEJ]

its replacement, the Sq 58, is a better boat all round, and the flybridge in particular is several leagues ahead.
.

.

I don't know your budget but if it will stretch then look at early sq58, which is a great boat in its category. Starting £ 275k I guess, not sure. If this fits your budget, it looks like a very well cared for s55 with the right engines and definitely worth a closer look. Must be a contender for the best 2001-er on the market

Hmmmmm......

I see what you mean. I had a look at some photos of SQ58s and they are a very nice boat.

I am going to Mallorca next month and I think I will take a look at that SQ55 when I am there though.

 

[petem]

That looks a very nice machine and mint too. It's being sold by Fairline North Mallorca which is run by Russell Currie (also Fairline Yacht's MD). Russell will be at the BMYS at the weekend and I'm sure will give you an honest appraisal of the boat if you're there. As long as you're not on a tight budget, I'd think that spending a little more on a good one, being sold by the reputable dealer, would be money well spent.

 

[Whitelighter]

I like those 55s. Afaik the Mk3 had a very similar fly to the 58.
Layout is nearly identical, save two twins rather than the twin/double set up on the 58. I think also the 58 has the door on the other side.

 

[PEJ]

That looks a very nice machine and mint too. It's being sold by Fairline North Mallorca which is run by Russell Currie (also Fairline Yacht's MD). Russell will be at the BMYS at the weekend and I'm sure will give you an honest appraisal of the boat if you're there. As long as you're not on a tight budget, I'd think that spending a little more on a good one, being sold by the reputable dealer, would be money well spent.

That is a great bit of info, thanks Pete. I am planning to go to the BMYS.

 

[jfm]

I like those 55s. Afaik the Mk3 had a very similar fly to the 58.
Layout is nearly identical, save two twins rather than the twin/double set up on the 58. I think also the 58 has the door on the other side.

Yup to all that. Sq 58 is only a tiny bit bigger. On lower deck the extra length is somewhat used up by athwartships fuel and it has 2800litres as opposed to 2100 on sq55. That does make for a useful extra bit of range at least in the Med. It allows cote-D'Azur to Mallora direct, which would be nogo in Sq55. Water tankage 55/58 is also noticeable - 500 litres versus 1000, iirc . All numbers approximate. Both very nice boats imho. Well built, reasonably timeless styling

 

[Whitelighter]

If I ever replace Seralia it's likely to be with a SQ58

 

[MapisM]

Sq 58 is only a tiny bit bigger. On lower deck the extra length is somewhat used up by athwartships fuel and it has 2800litres as opposed to 2100 on sq55.

In PEJ boots, I wouldn't mind the lower range.
I mean, at P speed any boat is bound to have a limited range in absolute terms, no matter how large the tanks are.
To put that in perspective, just compare it to the 1500+ NM of my old tub...
...Sure, he couldn't stretch the range that much on a Sq55 just by slowing down, but CdA-Baldricks, or just about any other direct passage within the Med, wouldn't be an issue for any P boat at D speed - saving also some fuel in the process, and maybe putting the money aside for fitting a gyro, hence enjoying pootling even more...!

There's another thing I'm curious about, though.
Do you (or anyone else) know if and how the 55 hull attitude is affected by the different tanks placement, compared to the 58?
I'm asking because in most Olesinski hulls the stern lift is rather low, and that translates in a pretty high AoA at P speed - aka bow high attitude, which someone might like, but I don't.
Otoh, as I recall the Sq58 is not too bad in this respect, and I'm wondering if the same is true for the 55.
Also because according to the specs the 55 is a bit narrower, so I suppose the two hulls were made from different moulds...

 

[Hurricane]

I assume that you are thinking of replacing the Sealine T51 - which I know well!!
Taking JFM's point, you should consider that boats seem to get smaller in the Med.
I know that sounds odd but it is probably because the Med caters for larger craft.
Also, the boat will be a "home from home" so it is worth stretching the budget to get the largest boat you can afford.

Also consider the berthing.
Some marinas charge berths by the bert's nominal size rather than the boat's physical dimensions (Sant Carles does this)
So it could cost the same to berth a 55 as a 58.

Also, for us the galley position is important.
The T51 has the galley in a very sociable area on the main deck.
Lots of boats of this size have the galley on the accommodation deck.
For me, these mid height galleys effectively positioned within the saloon area do fit the bill as being in a sociable area but my SWMBO wasn't that keen on them.

Also, for the Med there are lots of other things to consider that will come with the larger boats.
Clothes washing and drying for example (both the 55 and your old T51 tick that box though) - yes all marinas have a laundry but it is so much more convenient to do your own washing on board.
Also - storage is paramount - this will be a home from home so you need larger areas to keep things like water skis, inflatable toys and all the clobber that you will accumulate.

How about stretching the budget to this Princess 61?
If it is still available, it is already on a berth in Alcudia so it could save quite a sum in delivery costs etc.
http://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/1294693/?searchid=11813090&page=1
Personally, I like the P61 - lots of accommodation - thats what we were going to upgrade the T51 to - until we got talked into an even bigger one.
We have never regretted going bigger.

It might be worth looking at the same vintage of Princesses - here is a P57 already in Spain.
http://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/1304008/?searchid=11813128&page=1
NickH might like to comment on this size of Princess

 

[PEJ]

I
Also, the boat will be a "home from home" so it is worth stretching the budget to get the largest boat you can afford.

Personally, I like the P61 - lots of accommodation - thats what we were going to upgrade the T51 to - until we got talked into an even bigger one.
We have never regretted going bigger.

I know all about that! Regular viewers may recall I was going for a P45 and ended up with the T51. I, too, have never regretted going bigger and going for the manufacturer's top end model type was a good move too.

I have to decide, if I do make the med move, whether to move the T51 or buy a similar boat in-situ. Hence why I was trying to establish the difference between the Phantom and the Squadron. My neighbour in OV is a Phantom 48 and it is lovely so it is nice to know that the Squadron is even better.

The P61 looks nice but is a bit over budget for this change. Maybe next change.

 

[Nick_H]

It might be worth looking at the same vintage of Princesses - here is a P57 already in Spain.
http://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/1304008/?searchid=11813128&page=1
NickH might like to comment on this size of Princess

Ours has proved to be an excellent boat over the last 8 years and 1,000 hours. Size wise it's almost identical to the Sq58, and both are great boats so it's really down to personal preference. Sq58 does have a better flybridge layout, but P57 fly can be easily and cheaply upgraded to be just as good imho. I think many other things are better on the Princess, so I would make the same choice again. BTW, if you're tall, the older Squadrons were tight on headroom.

That looks a sensible asking price for the P57, subject to the usual negotiation, and of course dependent on condition.

 

[volvopaul]

Ours has proved to be an excellent boat over the last 8 years and 1,000 hours. Size wise it's almost identical to the Sq58, and both are great boats so it's really down to personal preference. Sq58 does have a better flybridge layout, but P57 fly can be easily and cheaply upgraded to be just as good imho. I think many other things are better on the Princess, so I would make the same choice again. BTW, if you're tall, the older Squadrons were tight on headroom.

That looks a sensible asking price for the P57, subject to the usual negotiation, and of course dependent on condition.

And I will add, the Princess 57 is a peach to service as the engine bay is so big and high, no need to even lift the saloon floor for anything where as the SQ 58 is very tight on headroom but has the advantage of central fuel tanks so plenty of room outside each engine. If the valves need checking it's all the settee and floor up. Both great boats .

 

[Hurricane]

P57 and the SQ 58
AND the T51
All have D12s IIRC