What exactly Is a VM Diesel

[Converging]

I have a Sealine fitted with two 3.6 Mercruiser engines but I keep hearing a reference to them being VM Engines. Research shows VM engines are made in Italy or that they are fitted to Land Rovers. I thought mercruiser were American! Whats the truth or am I on the wrong track completley?

 

[PCUK]

No, you are right. VM are made by VM Diesel in Italy. You can probably Google them.

 

[neale]

Good or bad engines, depends who you listen to. VM lumps were fitted in early diesel Range Rovers and have been used in Rovers (SD1 and 825), Fords (Scorpio) and Jeeps (Cherokee). Probably others as well that I have forgotten.

Marine wise they were the base engine for the 80's BWM diesels and the slightly later 6 cylinder MerCruiser engines.

I quite like them. Got one in my Range Rover. Very easy to work on. Separate cylinder heads on each cylinder. Basic and simple. Known to clock up huge mileage in cars as long as they are looked after.

Biggest problem is overheating leading to head problems. Keep em cool and regularly serviced and they should keep going.

 

[DownWest]

Range Rovers imported to Portugal (and Discos) were fitted with VMs and didn't have a stella reputation. Friend had broken rockers and big bills. Don't know about Mercruiser tho.
A

I think you are right about Jeeps with VMs, untill MB bought them and fitted CDI lumps.

 

[tinkicker0]

I have a Sealine fitted with two 3.6 Mercruiser engines but I keep hearing a reference to them being VM Engines. Research shows VM engines are made in Italy or that they are fitted to Land Rovers. I thought mercruiser were American! Whats the truth or am I on the wrong track completley?

Sure you are not getting em mixed up with GM?

Most Mercs are based on General Motors lumps, eg 3.0l = GMC Iron duke 4 banger.
4.2l = Chevy V6.
7.2MPI = Chevvy V8

http://www.gm.com/experience/technology/news/2008/10best_121208.jsp

 

[Firefly625]

Sure you are not getting em mixed up with GM?

Most Mercs are based on General Motors lumps, eg 3.0l = GMC Iron duke 4 banger.
4.2l = Chevy V6.
7.2MPI = Chevvy V8

http://www.gm.com/experience/technology/news/2008/10best_121208.jsp

PCUK & all are right, VM diesels are indeed Italian and were fitted to Range Rovers in the 4 cylinder format, as Neale stated separate cylinder heads, which are of course a little unusual meant that the basic same engine is used with a couple more cylinders added for other applications, in this case marine. Had some issues with the cylinder heads going slightly out of alignment in vehicles and they then started to make a "tweating" noise.... well that's the only way we used to describe it! But pretty sound, heavy engines, some big mileages done....

 

[volvopaul]

Hi your sealine will have either the 180hp 3.6 litre engine or the 4.2 litre 220hp version, it was marketed and marinised by mercruiser, but as costs to design and build engines are astronomical some companies use a base / stock engine as there model.

BMW marine used the same 180hp d636 vm motori engine, IMHO there not a good marine engine better suited to the industrial use they were intended for in the first place.

Some parts are getting scarce like simple parts like anodes for the coolers etc.

When first introduced to the marine world the heat exchangers were so small they overheated, things improved with the addition of separate oil coolers, but they are only just on top of the job, the engines dont suit some boats like brooms or larger princesses, and were later dropped from the options list in favour of volvo and yanmar engines.

 

[rafiki_]

VM Motori are Italian, and have had various owners over the years, including MV Augusta, Chrysler (part owner) and now Gaz International (Russians who killed off LDV Vans in B'ham). Most marinisers do not design or make the base engines, including Volvo Penta, who have sourced from a number of places. Mercruiser petrol engines are generally US Big 3 sourced, and they dabbled in some diesels, and have now joined forces with Cummins, called CMD.

I have 2 CMD units in my boat, based on Isuzu engines. If you are careful, you can source some base engine parts from the original manufacturer. I have used Isuzu oil and fuel filters sourced from the van dealers, having previously paid a fortune for the Quicksilver boxes from Swindlers!!!

 

[Latestarter1]

VM Ownership

VM were effectively owed by the Italian government until 1998.

Chrysler were purchasing increasing volumes for the Voyager and was approached by the Italian government who wished to get out of ever increasing R&D expenditure.

Chrysler not wanting to get into engine manufacure but at the same time needing to secure supplies invited Cummins and Roger Penskie owner of Detroit Diesel to bid. Following due dilligence into the products Cummins walked. Now in a one horse race Penskie scooped up VM for a song and wound it into his Detroit Diesel empire.

However Detroit was already in deep do-do with the US EPA over cheat strategies on truck emissions and following a huge fine under the EPA Consent Decree Penskie was washed up. Detroit and sold out to Mercedes, who already owned a stake in Detroit. For sale notice went up over the door again, engineers at Stuttgart had no time at all for VM designs. Whoever refered to VM being heavy is completely wrong, always a light motor in their displacement node.

Mercedes managed to sell 50% to GM for use in cars produced by their Daewoo operation in 2007 and then disposed of the other 50% to GAZ some time after.

Mercruiser had a long term supply agreement with VM for marine engines. VM produce the complete marine unit, however they are bound by the terms of the supply agreement only to sell marine engines in certain markets, for example Italy.

With the advent of the Cummins/Mercruiser deal they were bound by a long term supply agreement between VM and Mercruiser, despite the fact that Cummins had already had the books opened up to them when they had done due dilligence back in 1998 and had not liked what they had seen.

 

[volvopaul]

Very Interesting mr latestarter that answers my thoughts as to why cummins and mercruiser joined together, I had thought about trying to push out volvopenta.

I dont think anyone ever will push vp out, the japanese are trying there best but as of yet the outdrives are still not up to vp standard, imho nether are mercruiser.

Interesting your post about hp figures on yanmar, I always compare how broom boats seem to go better with the yanmars rather than the equivalent rated hp volvopenta.

 

[Latestarter1]

Volvo Vs Yanmar

Slightly off topic,

however old generation Volvo 40 and 60 Series were a also bit flaky on power but were a little shy on out right urge, then Yanmar LP's and LY's came along. It was all about the WAY Yanmar delvered the power rather than the actual numbers. VM 4.2 and Volvo KAD 44 could never match Yanmar LP on one and two second torque, period.

With new generation common rail engines D4/6 etc Volvo got real, understated rather than overstated power and deliver some serious one and two second torque figures. VM 4.2 common rail in CMD QSD format can now also be taken seriously.

Yanmar has gone backwards, new generation LP's with retarded timing are pussy cats if you stand them up against fire breathing old LP's.

LYA3 with its £3,500 cost to overhaul fuel pump is almost a bad joke. It requires the dealer to manually set the AFC (Air fuel control) with the lap top. You can have vessel which takes off like a scalded cat but produces clouds of black smoke. Or you can have one the in opposite AFC position not wanting to get out of bed, getting it right costs service $$'s, then you get a fouled bottom.

As for outdrives consider this; ZF are #1 in marine gearboxes, toppled Twin Disc years ago. However good ZF is, what happened when they got into making outdrives, utter disaster.........

US market fast becoming polarised CMD/VP at expense of both Yanmar and CAT, however the CMD QSD(VM) is STILL stuggling to gain acceptance??

 

[Converging]

wow guys so much information!! Does this mean I can source parts from normal motor factors to avoid paying silly marine prices and if so what model engine would they need to know as a reference?

 

[davedpc]

I have a Sealine fitted with two 3.6 Mercruiser engines but I keep hearing a reference to them being VM Engines. Research shows VM engines are made in Italy or that they are fitted to Land Rovers. I thought mercruiser were American! Whats the truth or am I on the wrong track completley?

I have little trouble getting engine spares from VM from chesterfield Tel. 01246 455350. Think they are on holiday until next week.. Like the Volvos the lower hp engines are unstressed but as they squees more and more power out of the standard blocks using cleaver electronics and fueling etc. it is then that problems occur.

 

[rafiki_]

Converging, you will need to know the base engine spec to source parts from motor factors. If you can find the serial no of the engine, then this should be possible. Then consider if the part is likely to be marinised. Alternatively check the part on the engine currently. My expensive Quicksilver boxes came complete with Isuzu branded parts and numbers. No brainer to replace. Belts have Isuzu brand and numbers on them. Engine internals I'm not so confident about, so will stick with Isuzu consumables, and hope never to replace the mechanicals.

 

[dieselboy]

if you look at the CMD venture there is a good reason as to why they joined up, if you look at the engine range...Cummins make only larger engines and the Mercury range stops around the same place Cummins start at...
There is a crossover, but I guess you would get that at the start of a project when two companies decide to cooperate.

 

[davey]

VM diesel overheating.

Good or bad engines, depends who you listen to. VM lumps were fitted in early diesel Range Rovers and have been used in Rovers (SD1 and 825), Fords (Scorpio) and Jeeps (Cherokee). Probably others as well that I have forgotten.

Marine wise they were the base engine for the 80's BWM diesels and the slightly later 6 cylinder MerCruiser engines.

I quite like them. Got one in my Range Rover. Very easy to work on. Separate cylinder heads on each cylinder. Basic and simple. Known to clock up huge mileage in cars as long as they are looked after.

Biggest problem is overheating leading to head problems. Keep em cool and regularly serviced and they should keep going.

The Rover 825 VM was an impeccable installation of a VM (temperature sensor in the HEAD! and an unmissable overheat alarm light that blinked) My Range Rover Vogue VM was a dismal installation (temperature sensor in the water pipe to the radiator) After all the water and steam has gone the temperature gauge will show that the engine is now cooling down when in fact it is burning up. To make matters worse the oil cooler is in the radiator so water loss also kills the oil coolers ability to cool. Throw in a crappy viscous coupled fan that free-wheels when it shouldn't and very bad plumbing that traps steam instead of venting it and disaster is virtually assured. The excrement on the cake was a temperature gauge that couldn't be seen at night unless the interior light was turned on. At least the burnt out engines are heavy enough to make an anchor! Hope to fix the Rangie one day but the plumbing and temperature sensing will have to be done properly. Curiously some 2.5VMs had an extra water tank above the radiator header tank. This raises the water level above the highest point of the engine. An electric fan is also a good idea although I found that a Ford Granada fan (solid) was a wast improvement over the free-wheeling job that drove OK when cold but free-wheeled when hot! The V8 engines were considerably lower than the VM hence air-locks did not occur to the same extent.

 

[rafiki_]

Davey,

The header tank was raised to ease the coolant fill. One of the problems with the VM overheating was that is was extremely difficult to fill and get rid of the air blockages. Raising the header eased this issue.

The VM was not a patch on the LR home designed and built 2.5 litre Gemini, intorduced with the first Discovery. Gem 2 was my perference, in the 1993 facelift Disco and Rangie. This replaced the VM in the Rangie, with a DI Diesel rather than the IDI VM enigne.

Jag tried the VM in the early '80's, and it worked quite well, but never went into production.

Not the currently defunct LDV Maxus used a VM engine. The van is about to reappear made in Shanghai.

 

[spannerman]

As many have stated VM are indeed Italian and have been the base diesel for Mercruiser for many years, but no more. VM have now been dropped by Mercruiser and as of next year they will use only engines based on the VW and Audi diesel engines and Cummins will take care of the bigger motors, so its no more Isuzu 1.7 or VM 4 and 6 cylinder lumps, shame they wer good reliable engines if looked after and don't have half the problems we have had with ALL of Volvos D3,4,6 engines.
The VEW engines are renowned for their high torque output but I wonder how they will fair coupled to drives, will we get a rerun of the Yanmar/Bravo drive problems of a few years ago.
I already have a whole bunch of technical bulletins and upgrades for the 'new' D3, and in the last 6 weeks we have pulled out 4 D6 motors because of seawater leaks which corrode the main battery terminals on the starter motor which then cause high resistance resulting in burnt out engine looms which need the engine out to replace, how long have Volvo been making engines now? I am sorry but the reliabilty is a joke, give me a Mercruiser or Yanmar anyday.

 

[DAKA]

As many have stated VM are indeed Italian and have been the base diesel for Mercruiser for many years, but no more. VM have now been dropped by Mercruiser .........................................................., give me a Mercruiser or Yanmar anyday.

They are made in Italy, were American owned by GM and Detroit and now GAZ (Russian ?) there is a bit of good news in that they are now available from Nanni as they now sell the VM 700 series so spares shouldnt be a problem for years.

4.2 L available as 320hp and 350 hp but not the 370hp yet...........


The modification gaiter on the VP leg rams doesnt work either making them an annual disposable item, however I wouldnt try to separate a leader in reliability , I think it is too closely linking to new technology, when any new engine is launched there will be problems and the VM engine had its problems 20 years ago (BMW got the mucky end of the stick) .

 

[Bandit]

I had a pair of 180hp 6cyl in a Halmatic 34 semi displacement on shafts.

They had VM on the Blocks, BMW stickers and Mercruiser stickers.

VM Is an italian engine manufacturer and sold engines to BMW for their marine engine range (petrols and diesels) BMW lost their shirt on it and sold range to Mercruiser as their range was all petrol at that time and yanks did not know how to build small diesels ( still dont).

This engine range ran for about 8 to 10 yrs in production.

I had overheating problems with mine and they made a fine set of deadmen when chain was added.