Westerly Fulmar - fin or bilge?

[Tim Lee]

OK, I know this is a well rehersed topic but i just can't decide!!
I am looking to buy a Fulmar this winter. I am trading up from a Centaur. I sail from Dartmouth and whilst I don't have a shallow water problem I have enjoyed drying out several times in my Centaur. I would like to be able to do this in the future with a bilge keeled fulmar and I like the idea of keeping maintenance costs down in the future by being able to dry out for repairs/antifouling etc.
BUT, one of the principal reasons I am trading up to a Fulmar is that I am keen to get better performance, particularly to windward. So I am keen to understand more fully the performance differences between the fin keeled fulmar and the bilge. Is there anyone out there who has sailed both and can offer some advice? I know the fin will sail somewhat better but by how much? Is it a marginal difference or will I really notice it? If it is marginal I would probably be happy with the bilge keel for the reasons mentioned above but if the performance difference is significant I worry I will live to regret going for the bilge.

 

[Robin]

Fin always unless you have a drying mooring, you can still lean on a wall or post to antifoul if needs be. You said you are trading up for better performance from a Centaur, so why take 3 steps forward and then 2 steps back, just in case you might once in a while want to dry out?

 

[vyv_cox]

I agree, very few bilge keel versions will sail anything like as well as their finned siblings. Why not fit legs for the few occasions that you need to dry. A Fulmar will sit nicely on them.

 

[30boat]

I have experience of both.Mine is a fin a friend's is a twin,We both have good sails.Mine is definitely faster and points better.On a recent outing when my friend came along on my boat and it was blowing a good six I still hadn't reefed when he said his boat would have been overpowered in those conditions.Twin keels are indeed convenient for drying out but the perfomance will suffer.

 

[Searush]

Check out the Westerly Owners' site Fulmar/ Griifon guide here. Ed Dubois' design brief was to produce a fast, safe boat with as little difference beteween the fin & twin keel versions as possible. My understanding is that he acheived that brief remarkably well.

One of the most popular boats ever built by Westerly too with 435 being built.

When choosing fin or twin I always ask myself where will I keep it & what soert of sailing will I do? I sail an area of big tides & drying harbours/ moorings, plus I like to take the grandkids to the beach. In my case twin keel winns hands down every time. But if you make long passages & sail out of a deep water base with all tide access - maybe the hassle of occasionally drying out against a quay wall in France or the Channel isles is worth it.

 

[smth448]

Be very careful if buying a bilge keeled Fulmar. When I had mine the WOA newsletter was full of people reporting problems with the bottom of the boat flexing around the bilge keel attachment points. Some needed quite expensive modifications. I expect others on this forum may have been directly involved in such things.
I was glad mine was a fin keeler.

 

[Searush]

Be very careful if buying a bilge keeled Fulmar. When I had mine the WOA newsletter was full of people reporting problems with the bottom of the boat flexing around the bilge keel attachment points. Some needed quite expensive modifications. I expect others on this forum may have been directly involved in such things.
I was glad mine was a fin keeler.

It's covered in the link I posted - affects the early ones only & most should have been re-inforced under warranty - it's one of the reasons Westerly went under despite their excellent customer care attitude, as the cost was pretty stiff.

 

[beserksail]

Check out the Westerly Owners' site Fulmar/ Griifon guide here. Ed Dubois' design brief was to produce a fast, safe boat with as little difference beteween the fin & twin keel versions as possible. My understanding is that he acheived that brief remarkably well.

One of the most popular boats ever built by Westerly too with 435 being built.

When choosing fin or twin I always ask myself where will I keep it & what soert of sailing will I do? I sail an area of big tides & drying harbours/ moorings, plus I like to take the grandkids to the beach. In my case twin keel winns hands down every time. But if you make long passages & sail out of a deep water base with all tide access - maybe the hassle of occasionally drying out against a quay wall in France or the Channel isles is worth it.

I own a fin keel version of the 4 or 5 aft cabin variants mentioned in the Fulmar / Griffon guide above and find this a brilliant set up, I would like to get in touch with others who have the same layout. Please PM me.

 

[zarathustra]

I recall my first sailing lesson from an instructor who had done decades sailing and racing all kinds of boats, mostly monohulls of all descriptions as well as power boats and cats. He was asked about the bilge keelers as we passed an area of the harbour with alot of boats in shallow waters. His reply was "Those bilge keels are great, you can dry out on the mud if needs be and access all the shallow areas, but they sail like a sack of s***!"

 

[vyv_cox]

I recall my first sailing lesson from an instructor who had done decades sailing and racing all kinds of boats, mostly monohulls of all descriptions as well as power boats and cats. He was asked about the bilge keelers as we passed an area of the harbour with alot of boats in shallow waters. His reply was "Those bilge keels are great, you can dry out on the mud if needs be and access all the shallow areas, but they sail like a sack of s***!"

An instructor I overheard was asked 'What's the best way to get a Centaur upwind?' His reply - 'Put it on a low-loader!'

 

[Tom Price]

Westerly Fulmars

Have sailed both extensively and, disregarding structural problems, the twin was actually stiffer but didn't point as well - and she did slam noisily too.

An example of performance difference would be leaving Cherbourg in a NW 4 bound for Chi and being able to lay Bembridge Ledge whereas the bilge version ends up East of the Owers three hours later.

Just a detail, but what a shame that the Fulmar has such an antiquated cockpit!

 

[30boat]

Have sailed both extensively and, disregarding structural problems, the twin was actually stiffer but didn't point as well - and she did slam noisily too.

An example of performance difference would be leaving Cherbourg in a NW 4 bound for Chi and being able to lay Bembridge Ledge whereas the bilge version ends up East of the Owers three hours later.

Just a detail, but what a shame that the Fulmar has such an antiquated cockpit!

In my experience it's the fin that is stiffer,I'm alway able to keep full sail until later than my friend's twin keel Fulmar.Both versions have the same ballast weight .Twin keeled versions nearly always carry more ballast than fin keelers.I cannot agree with the cockpit being antiquated.It's considered by many to be one of the best ever designed and I don't find a lot that's wrong with it.

 

[MoodySabre]

Last year I posted this comparisonbetween fin and bilge Moody 31s. Same conclusion as Tom Price - pointing and noise were the big differences.

If you really want to dry out on the beach or in a drying harbour then get a bilgy and suffer the sailing performance for the benefits you value. If you just potter about then get the best condition boat regardless. If you want to cross the channel or do long passages then the fin is the way to go.

 

[Tim Lee]

Thanks for all your useful comments chaps. Vyv - I wondered when we would get on to 'Centaur bashing'!!
I am leaning towards the fin as I want to start getting across the Channel and in reality I only dry out a handful of times a year.
Interestingly though, the PY ratings are not dissimilar for fin and bilge. And a frient of mine races a bilged fulmar from Topsham and says his handicap for a folding prop is similar to the handicap difference between bilge and fin

 

[alan_d]

An instructor I overheard was asked 'What's the best way to get a Centaur upwind?' His reply - 'Put it on a low-loader!'

Yes, I've heard those stories too. The OP has first-hand experience of a Centaur and I imagine that is why he wanted to hear from "anyone out there who has sailed both" rather than rely on prejudice, anecdote and hearsay.

 

[vyv_cox]

Yes, I've heard those stories too. The OP has first-hand experience of a Centaur and I imagine that is why he wanted to hear from "anyone out there who has sailed both" rather than rely on prejudice, anecdote and hearsay.

Try not to take life too seriously

 

[Robin]

Thanks for all your useful comments chaps. Vyv - I wondered when we would get on to 'Centaur bashing'!!
I am leaning towards the fin as I want to start getting across the Channel and in reality I only dry out a handful of times a year.
Interestingly though, the PY ratings are not dissimilar for fin and bilge. And a frient of mine races a bilged fulmar from Topsham and says his handicap for a folding prop is similar to the handicap difference between bilge and fin

I've only sailed fin keeled Fulmars, but owned a fin keeled Westerly 33 Ketch which we sailed a long distance in company with a twin keeled W33 Ketch in a variety of conditions, light winds to over 50kts true, upwind and downwind. Our fin keeled W33 was consistantly quicker and by quite a margin. On a 60ml dead upwind leg we sailed the whole way, whilst the twin keeler developed a technique of allowing us to get half a mile or so ahead and then motor sailing to pass us the same amount before sailing again until we again passed and got half mile ahead. Dead downwind after several days and several days holed up with severe gales, we left for a 120ml run, started in light winds all sail up, the twin keeler had a mizzen staysail as well, yet we were still about half a knot faster. When the unforecast secondary low came and caught us unaware and blasted us with 50 kts true wind we (both boats) were left with full mains, mizzens stowed and genoas rolled. Turning into the huge breaking seas, (North Brittany spring tides, huge leftover swell after days of gales and now 50kts of wind again) was not an option without risking being rolled so both boats kept full main and sailed and surfed our way on - guess what, we were STILL about half a knot faster!

So would I have a fin or twin? Yep got it in one (keel).

BTW I owned one centreboarder and three different bilge keelers before my first fin, by which time I was so fed up with going upwind poorly I said the next boat will either have a fin or a bloody great engine and preferably both! The next one had a fin and a titchy engine and it seemed that now we could go upwind we never had to!

Twin keels are only to suit moorings, not leaving them to go somewhere. If you really want to dry out, lean on a wall or get legs.

 

[pugwash60]

Bilge for x channel

I woulldn't worry at all about doing cross channels or whatever on a bilge keeler, they should be just as strong and safe, imo it's just a a choice between upwind performance and shallow draught and ability to dry out and anchor inshore of everyone else apart from the feline sailors. If you can't make your mind up why not leave it in the hands of the heavens and look at both and settle on the nicest one however her bottom is formed?

 

[30boat]

I woulldn't worry at all about doing cross channels or whatever on a bilge keeler, they should be just as strong and safe, imo it's just a a choice between upwind performance and shallow draught and ability to dry out and anchor inshore of everyone else apart from the feline sailors. If you can't make your mind up why not leave it in the hands of the heavens and look at both and settle on the nicest one however her bottom is formed?

I agree entirely.Both are very good boats, the fin keel version being a little better.You'll be happy with any of them.

 

[zarathustra]

An instructor I overheard was asked 'What's the best way to get a Centaur upwind?' His reply - 'Put it on a low-loader!'