webbing jackstays at a sensible price?

[AntarcticPilot]

Webbing off Ebay? DIY sewing? Tape knots? I sincerely hope none of you ever have to explain to a coroners court why you were tight wads when it came to safety equipment. How can any of you be sure your botch ups meet the safety standards required for jack stays.

Tape knots are probably stronger than a sewn eye; it just doesn't look as neat. In general the correct knot for any particular purpose is as strong or stronger than a splice or sewn join. Note, however, that I do say "The correct knot"; a knot that is excellent for one purpose may be downright dangerous when used in the wrong context.

 

[ghostlymoron]

The trouble with buying odd ebay is that you often don't get what you think you're getting. If i went down this route, I would need some assurance that the webbing was adequately strong. I have no problem with overhand knots. They are as strong as sewn loops (especially home sewn) and don't rely on thread which may deteriorate with UV. Take them off when not in use or at least over winter and they will last twice as long. (Same with halyards). There are drawbacks to jackstays and I tend to clip on to an inboard point if available but on balance I think it's better to be towed along by the boat than left well astern. At least your body can be recovered! If you're single handed you need to think seriously about a man overboard situation when no help is available.

 

[Sans Bateau]

If I installed that eye it would be a minimum of 10mm with a metal backing plate.
All jolly fine talking about safety standards but when I look at what they install in mass produced yachts today, gear that you probably think is safe because ''they'' say it is, then to be honest, I am quite often horrified by the standards I see.

I wasnt referring to the U bolts, in that respect I fully agree. However I have seen some home made sewn loops and they were horrific, what some see as acceptable may not any more use than a chocolate fire guard.

You only have to look around any marina to see that on board safety equipment sits firmly at the bottom of some peoples priority list.

 

[Lady Campanula]

It's worthwhile noting what is required, internationally, by ISAF for racing boats and their crews, then reflecting on 'why'. The people on the committee that decides this stuff are all deeply-experienced offshore sailors with access to the best guidance/technology.

Jackstays shall be provided:

ii comprising stainless steel 1 x 19 wire of minimum diameter 5 mm 3/16 in), or webbing of equivalent strength;

iii which, when made from stainless steel wire shall be uncoated and used without any sleeving;

iv 20kN (2,040 kgf or 4,500 lbf) min breaking strain webbing is recommended;

I fitted webbing jackstays to a friend's non-racing boat 10 years ago. About 5 years ago, I firmly recommended that 'my' webbing be replaced, as it had been out in all seasons' UV for 5 years.... It was. Handsewn to fit. The replacement stuff has now been out there 5 years.....

 

[Sans Bateau]

I am not surprised by the reaction to my comments. But I understand that safety lines should be made to EN1095, I have googled this to find out what the specification is, but had no luck/more time. I remember several years ago I used to buy safety lines from Sea Teach in Emsworth, they had to stop making/selling them because they could not make them to that specification. How on earth can you make your own to that spec if Sea Teach cant?

 

[Martin_J]

I seem to remember a very similar thread from this time last year...

I also checked out EN1095 at the time and seem to recall that it defines standards for the actual harness or safety line and is not actually related in any way to what you decide to clip your harness or safety line to.

Pre-cursors to EN1095 in the past have attempted to define many different stitch patterns.. and strengths.. but all they can do in the way of testing safety lines is a straight pull (to destruction) test. This only actually tests the line that is now broken! When you have a webbing jackstay along a deck it could be pulled in so many different other ways and who knows where the stitching is being done.. probably in a place where the machinist has 1000 different threads... Who knows which thread they pick up when the current thread runs out

As to my safety lines - as Sandyman says.. I sew my own.. with thread I know to be more than a EN1095 harness would require and with a more than adequate stitch pattern. Doing it this way I know the materials used (could you guarantee this in a £75 pacckaged line?) and I can replace them as often as I like without being concerned with cost in any way.

As an aside... After the thread last year I walked the local marina pontoons and took photos of every jackstay/attachment I could see.. I will upload the pictures later and you will hopefully agree how bad some look. Hopefully you will also not be able to tell the difference between a £75 bought jackstay and a well stiched home made jackstay.

 

[Slycat]

webbing

I went through the same process and thought very carefully about it as I sail on a commercial basis.

When you buy webbing online you have to very careful about the maximum load that the webbing is rated for. The 'proper' webbing straps have very high ratings.

It is very important to remember that the load theses straps are required to support are the sudden impact loads of a member falling, not just the weight of the person falling. This is many times their actual weight. Quick calculations showed that most webbing sold on e-bay did not even some close to these snatch loads and were way under-ated for safety webbing.

I eventually found some on e-bay that was just about ok but then thought to myself... what if two people fall at once!?

In the end I went for stainless steel lines and reinforced u-bolts. Yes, they are a pain sometimes to walk over but you can tuck them in tight so they dont lie in the middle of the side decks.

 

[Martin_J]

I have just read the previous post that mentions the ISAF racing regulations.. recommending that a minimum 2,040 kgf webbing is used.

It is quite easy (and not that expensive) to buy 3000kgf webbing.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Try here http://www.force4.co.uk/Search/jackstay/ for a good deal less than the price you quoted......

Thats for one - the cost I gave was for two.

I didnt mean to start a debate about safety equipment and dodgy boats, but just to throw some fuel on the fire - how many of you have practised MOB drill this year and got your crew / wife / partner to do so in case its you going over the side.

And how many of you have a clearly worked out and tested means of getting someone back on board?

I havent done either of those things and I'm a YM and instructor

 

[Conachair]

How on earth can you make your own to that spec if Sea Teach cant?

2" polyester webbing has an ultimate breaking force of 50kN or 5 tonnes. The stuff I use at work has anyway. Even allowing for 50% loss in a figure of eight knot each end will take 2 1/2 tonnes. More likely to rip your boat apart then fail. Sewing is prettier though.

I'm close to your view, but some stuff I want to be stronger than the regs so make it myself. Usually cheaper as well

 

[Georgio]

As others have said, jackstays are too important to "go-cheap" on, I'm all for saving money when I can but was more than happy to pay Ocean Rigging in Lymington to make me some with sewn loops at the end.

Some of the cheaper webbing stretches a lot when under load (not great if being dragged along in the water), also some webbing is less resistant to UV.

 

[Ruffles]

I have just read the previous post that mentions the ISAF racing regulations.. recommending that a minimum 2,040 kgf webbing is used.

It is quite easy (and not that expensive) to buy 3000kgf webbing.

Three tonne jackstay webbing can be had here. The thread structure on this stuff lends itself well to stitching along the tape. In fact the thread will almost disappear! Ideal if you don't have a machine that will do zigzag. You will need a UV resistant thread such as V69. Stitching will be the full strength of the tape. A tape knot will lose a third - but not really an issue.


I see they now do jackstay hooks that don't require stitching. Here

 

[Martin_J]

Colour of thread... Suggestion I believe is to use a contrasting colour so that any wear is more obvious... Although a yellow thread on yellow webbing might look cool.

 

[trapezeartist]

It is quite easy (and not that expensive) to buy 3000kgf webbing.

Any idea where I can get a body that will resist 3 tonnes?

 

[ghostlymoron]

Three tonne jackstay webbing can be had here. The thread structure on this stuff lends itself well to stitching along the tape. In fact the thread will almost disappear! Ideal if you don't have a machine that will do zigzag. You will need a UV resistant thread such as V69. Stitching will be the full strength of the tape. A tape knot will lose a third - but not really an issue.


I see they now do jackstay hooks that don't require stitching. Here

Yes but look at the price - I'll be sticking with knots!

 

[mpmiller101]

Tape knot?

Could someone point me to a site showing the Tape Knot please?

 

[matt21]

Try searching for webbing knot rather than tape, should come up with a water knot used in climbing http://www.netknots.com/html/water_knot.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMfrskqn2AM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[wilkinsonsails]

Three tonne jackstay webbing can be had here. The thread structure on this stuff lends itself well to stitching along the tape. In fact the thread will almost disappear! Ideal if you don't have a machine that will do zigzag. You will need a UV resistant thread such as V69. Stitching will be the full strength of the tape.

No it won't ,please don't sew up any jackstay webbing with V69 thread,i.It's not strong enough,Uv breakdown in less than a year .A minimum is V 92 or v138.Hand sewing with a waxed strong polyester thread will out last both of those.Just make sure webbing is polyester not polypropylene too.Cindy

 

[prv]

In general the correct knot for any particular purpose is as strong or stronger than a splice

Really? I was always under the impression that a splice was stronger, which I presumed was due to the more gradual integration of the two lines compared to the "sharp edge" of a knot.

Pete

 

[Plevier]

Try searching for webbing knot rather than tape, should come up with a water knot used in climbing http://www.netknots.com/html/water_knot.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMfrskqn2AM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Am I being stupid? I can't see any difference between that and simply making a long loop in the end and tying an ordinary overhand knot with the doubled section?
(Of course this way would let you pass it through something while tying but that isn't what it shows.)