Weak Stainless Steel or Strong winds in SOF

[BartW]

I doubt if you will get enough structual strength to secure a cleat into the swim platform to hold a boat that weight and windage, swinging in anger M, that is without major surgery.

you're right,
good sugestion from M, but I'm afraid that the platform won't hold,
it is light add-on, bolthed with M8's, oslt.

 

[BartW]

This requires two cleats on each side, though.

yes, and therefor I have to re-arrange the ropes before leaving in some occasions,

2 cleats on each side would be better, but I don't want to sacrifice space in the cockpit for that,
especially for the diving, we better have a lot of space.

but I do like handling and optimising the ropes

 

[BartW]

the real reason why it broke is probably another, i.e. the lines were too slack.

this is perfectly feasable,
in this harbor after a strong S-wind, the water level is up perhaps 50...70cm,
a few day's after that wind back down again.
so depending on the moment that you moore....
I'm not sure if this is the same in all marina's in SOF, Cassis is in a bay oriented to the south.

moreover my bowlines are much too vertical (I guess about 45deg). I asked the staff to move my fixing point on the chain more foreward, they moved it a bit, but this is the best they could do, actually the berth is too short for the boat.

all neighbour boats have crossed lines, but all lines seem too slack, I guess it has to do with the water level range (from wind)

 

[vas]

Yup, our sequences are very similar.
The only difference is that I skip your second step, because I start with the "secondary" lines, tightening them with the winches, so that the "main" lines are directly secured in their final position.
But I understand that having only one winch complicates things.
Shame really, I can't see the rationale behind that choice form Canados, and I fully agree with your idea of installing one also on the other side, if feasible.

apologies for slight thread drift,

MM, care to post a pic or two of the arrangement of the winches at the stern? I obviously have no winches there, wife is not much into helping (and with a semi permanent tendonitis on the right elbow-wrist) and until son gets a bit bigger and stronger I'll be struggling mostly alone.
Was thinking of maybe cutting a hole in the middle of the transom and installing one winch there with two cleats on either side for the secondary lines but passerelle is smack in the middle as well (albeit higher) so it could be slightly dodgy. This way I wont waste space on the corners (aft deck is not that big after all) and hide the winch under the step to the passerelle . I'll have to check heights as it maybe feasible.

V.

 

[Assassin]

One suggestion i would make is to use steel D links and dip them in Waxoyl before use, this is a little messy but it stops them corroding and the pins siezing if they are left for long periods.

 

[MapisM]

MM, care to post a pic or two of the arrangement of the winches at the stern?

Yep, no problem at all - see below.
I'm afraid this is the only pic I've got which shows the winch and cleats arrangement, and I will not return onboard for some months now.
I think it should be clear enough, though. Stbd side is exactly symmetrical.

But I'm not sure this can really help you find the best solution for your boat, because that's very specific, and depends both on the cleats arrangement and on where you have a strong enough base to support the winches, whose pulling strength is substantial.

Incidentally, in my opinion the best location for cockpit winches is wherever you can use them to tighten a line AFTER it's passed around the cleat, not before. In fact, this is the only arrangement which allows you to release a line from the winch and secure it to the cleat, without loosing much tension.
My setup doesn't allow that, though in my boat that doesn't really matter, because I've got two cleats each side, so I can tighten one line with the winch, secure the secondary line on the s/steel cleat, and finally secure the main line to the wooden cleat.
But if you have a single cleat, the winch location becomes more critical.

Last but not least, if you locate the winches in an area where you can normally walk, as they are in my boat, you'd better remember that they're much stronger than bare feet. Some guests of mine discovered that the hard way, in spite of my warnings...

 

[BartW]

I see what you mean AM, in fact I did mention the caveat on structural strength.
But I've seen platforms on boats of the vintage of BA which were indeed built as solid as pavements.
In fact, I've even seen some of them supporting large extensions built afterwards, with no need for major strenghtening.
That's the reason why I said that it looks thick enough, though of course it's just an impression, subject to some careful checks before fitting any cleats.

mmmm
have been thinking further about cleats on the platform (for fixing the cross lines)
certainly worth a more deep investigation,
or consider a reinforcement underneath the platform,
as then I also have a solution for mooring and ty-ing the tender along the platform, while on anker,
which is an issue at now.

 

[BartW]

Yep, no problem at all - see below.
I'm afraid this is the only pic I've got which shows the winch and cleats arrangement, and I will not return onboard for some months now.
I think it should be clear enough, though. Stbd side is exactly symmetrical.

But I'm not sure this can really help you find the best solution for your boat, because that's very specific, and depends both on the cleats arrangement and on where you have a strong enough base to support the winches, whose pulling strength is substantial.

Incidentally, in my opinion the best location for cockpit winches is wherever you can use them to tighten a line AFTER it's passed around the cleat, not before. In fact, this is the only arrangement which allows you to release a line from the winch and secure it to the cleat, without loosing much tension.
My setup doesn't allow that, though in my boat that doesn't really matter, because I've got two cleats each side, so I can tighten one line with the winch, secure the secondary line on the s/steel cleat, and finally secure the main line to the wooden cleat.
But if you have a single cleat, the winch location becomes more critical.

Last but not least, if you locate the winches in an area where you can normally walk, as they are in my boat, you'd better remember that they're much stronger than bare feet. Some guests of mine discovered that the hard way, in spite of my warnings...

do you also have only one forward footswitch for the winch ?
I would like to add a reverse switch aswell,

can be handy in some occasions,
especially when my sun's finger was squeezed between the rope and the roller, fortunately without too much harm

 

[BartW]

in my opinion the best location for cockpit winches is wherever you can use them to tighten a line AFTER it's passed around the cleat, not before. In fact, this is the only arrangement which allows you to release a line from the winch and secure it to the cleat, without loosing much tension.

if you were able to position the winch after the cleat,
would you have the line gliding "after" the cleat ? at what angle ?
wouldn't that give too much friction, too much stress on the winch ?

or would you position the winch so that the line just glide "along" the cleat, without friction ?

 

[prv]

The loops on the spring are too small of course for a big shackle, but that's because the spring device is too small as well for a 70t boat.

70 tonnes!

I was going to say that that shackle was too small - I wouldn't use it to moor my 3.5 tonne boat. But 70!

Pete

 

[MapisM]

have been thinking further about cleats on the platform...

B, just to avoid any possible misunderstanding:
when I mentioned "boats of the vintage of BA", I neither meant specifically Canados, nor your model.
Actually, I can't even remember which yards built the couple of boats which I have in mind, where large extension platforms were built afterwards. I'm almost sure that one was a Baglietto, and possibly the other was a Cantieri di Pisa.
Anyway, all I meant is that generally speaking, all GRP structures were more substantially built at the time when BA was built, so I wouldn't be surprised it the platform would be strong enough.
All subject to a proper check, of course.

Re. your other questions:
1) yep, in my boat both winches rotate only in one direction (clockwise for the one in the pic, CCW for the other on stbd side). I'm not sure if they are also available with double rotation.
2) I've seen boats where the line goes round the cleat, and returns toward the winch at almost 180°. This is imho the best arrangement with single cleats, because yes, the winch has to work harder due to higher friction, but that's no big deal. Otoh, that same friction is very useful when you want to untie the line from the winch and secure it to the cleat without loosing much tension.

 

[BartW]

if you were able to position the winch after the cleat,
would you have the line gliding "after" the cleat ? at what angle ?
wouldn't that give too much friction, too much stress on the winch ?

or would you position the winch so that the line just glide "along" the cleat, without friction ?

MapisM would you run the rope after the cleat when using the winch ?
I never did (dare), as I thought this creates too much friction and too much force on the winch. I'm amazed what kind of forces the winch - deck surface can handle

 

[MapisM]

I was going to say that that shackle was too small - I wouldn't use it to moor my 3.5 tonne boat. But 70!

LOL, actually I suspect that you're underestimating its size a bit.
My guess is that the line in the picture is 22 or 24mm, and the shackle 8mm.
If that would be the case, it could be fine for a 3.5T boat and a 14mm line.
But what do I know? Only Bart can confirm the actual size.

 

[BartW]

70 tonnes!

I was going to say that that shackle was too small - I wouldn't use it to moor my 3.5 tonne boat. But 70!

Pete

this was with the boat, and used succesfully by the previous owner, at least one winter in Rome,
will find out soon sinds how long,
but agree with you that that shackle was a joke.
actually on the other side it was the same.

I have to learn so much, upgrading from a 3T to a 70T boat

 

[MapisM]

MapisM would you run the rope after the cleat when using the winch ?
I never did (dare), as I thought this creates too much friction and too much force on the winch.

Yes, absolutely.
Incidentally, it's rather the cleat than the winch which could "suffer" more the load, because with your setup if you pass the line around the cleat before tightening it with the winch, the cleat is pulled also laterally.
But I really don't think you should have any problem.

 

[BartW]

My guess is that ... and the shackle 8mm.

my guess is 10mm, but will let you know next week.

 

[BartW]

I'm not sure if they are also available with double rotation.

I'am aware there are winches that can only pull in one direction,

I have checked, mine has a free electrical connection terminal for the reverse direction,
so I have to add just a footswitch and a relay, (I think)

 

[vas]

Am I missing something, or would it make more sense to at least place the footswitch by the transom and operate it with your left foot so to say, rather than breaking your toes regularly with it being smack in the middle?

 

[BartW]

Am I missing something, or would it make more sense to at least place the footswitch by the transom and operate it with your left foot so to say, rather than breaking your toes regularly with it being smack in the middle?

you're right, we had a few toe injuries last season,
but this is the orriginal position from the factory,

I have not yet discovered the ideal position for the footswitch while using the winch (I assume that is were it is right now !?)
but only in this tread I learned to use another method tying the ropes (rope behind the cleat) lets try that first,

but most important, the surface where the winch is mounted has to be suitable for that. you're invited to come and look on my boat what kind of forces are on the winch / deck

 

[MapisM]

My understanding of the switch location is that it has to be near enough to the winches to be always reachable by whoever is operating the line/winch, though obviously not close enough to interfere with the line.
The rationale is that if a person is maneuvering the line/winch, and someone else operates the switch, there's an obviously higher degree of risk.
Same goes for remote controls, btw: that's a no-no for these equipments.