Waxing / Protecting gelcoat?

[lw395]

Carnauba wax is known to have a high absorption of UV.
A fast and dirty demonstration is to smear some on a reactolite spectacle lens.

But I suspect there is other stuff going on, atmospheric dirt breaking down and reacting with the polyester or simply getting into pores of the gelcoat.

Applying wax in its liquid/paste form also removes a certain amount of dirt.

 

[salar]

I have just cleaned, cut and polished a dark blue hull with this:


I was delighted with the mirror-like finish with one pass with the buffer, and even more delighted when on of the pros at the marina came over to ask me what I had used!

 

[blxm]

I read recently that it may be best not to use a cutting compound too often on the basis that every time it is applied the thickness of gelcoat will decrease. Presumably a good wax will do no harm, but may not provide the head turning shine that the two used together would achieve!

Cutting compounds do indeed remove some of the gelcoat. However, the amount of gel removed is extremely small.
I have had this comment made to me many times so I decided to test it.
I make lightweight glass panels for race cars. The gelcoat is deliberately thin and certainly not as thick as an average yacht. Although new production yachts will have thinner gelcoat a than most older yachts as production techniques have improved. I found a scrap panel and using a very coarse cutting compound, Profile 200 on a lambs wool pad, went over and over the same area with the polisher. At 10 applications I gave up.
I then tried to ‘burn’ the surface, as this has also been mentioned many times as a ‘danger’, by using high rpm on a dry pad and course compound. I did manage it but you need to remain stationary for some time with excess pressure. I don’t think anyone would do this in the real world.
With medium or fine cutting compound I don’t think there is any real risk of going through the gelcoat or even removing enough to make any appreciable impact.
If anyone has done some better testing than my rather amateur uncontrolled effort I would love to know just how much material is removed in the real world.

 

[Lulla-Belle]

Only wash in Ph neutral shampoo we use Johnson Baby shampoo!

Wash & polish and apply Nano Tech!

Leaves a super shiny finish bead drops water and rain off.

Fantastic durability and excellent repellent to most of what nature chucks at it!

 

[matt1]

Cutting compounds do indeed remove some of the gelcoat. However, the amount of gel removed is extremely small.
I have had this comment made to me many times so I decided to test it.
I make lightweight glass panels for race cars. The gelcoat is deliberately thin and certainly not as thick as an average yacht. Although new production yachts will have thinner gelcoat a than most older yachts as production techniques have improved. I found a scrap panel and using a very coarse cutting compound, Profile 200 on a lambs wool pad, went over and over the same area with the polisher. At 10 applications I gave up.
I then tried to ‘burn’ the surface, as this has also been mentioned many times as a ‘danger’, by using high rpm on a dry pad and course compound. I did manage it but you need to remain stationary for some time with excess pressure. I don’t think anyone would do this in the real world.
With medium or fine cutting compound I don’t think there is any real risk of going through the gelcoat or even removing enough to make any appreciable impact.
If anyone has done some better testing than my rather amateur uncontrolled effort I would love to know just how much material is removed in the real world.

Not exactly the same test, but I polished my boat each season from new and after 13 years when I removed the decals there was a definite ridge with the decal area being noticeably proud from the surrounding area. Perhaps the best thing to do is to have a hull wrapped and forget about polishing and waxing ;-)

 

[pandroid]

For many years on my old Hallberg-Rassy, I polished the hull twice with Meguiars 45 Polish, followed by two coats of Meguiars 56 Wax. This kept the hull looking good for 2 years. I've followed the same routine with my current Bavaria. I started using Meguiars products after seeing guys at Fox's yard using them on Oysters. Both the polish and the wax can be easily applied by hand, and they buff off easily by hand too.

+1

 

[G12]

I found Autoglym wax works really well. I tried Farecla UV wax - It worked but didn't last as long as Autoglym. It's also longer lived than Mer as well.
I'd be interested to try some of the nano technology products sometime.

Boat gets washed down with soapy water with some oxalic acid crystals added. This cleans her and removes any waterline yellow staining before polishing (don't let it dry). She gets a cut back every now and then but if I stay ontop of it then she doesn't need cutting.

 

[thinwater]

Carnauba wax is known to have a high absorption of UV....

Yes, that is the scuttlebutt. Data? It has certainly been out there for many years.

Yes, sunglasses can block UV (95%?), but they are ~ 1mm thick. A wax film is 0-10 um thick (wears off), which is about 200 times less. So that logic does not help. Heck, a light shirt or even UV Dacron is not that great. Light Sunbrella covers are only about 50%.

If someone had data, they would publish it. I'm pretty sure the numbers are so low they would lose sales. If it is more than a few percent, I would be stunned. Thus, no data is published.

So show me the data.

 

[Marine Reflections]

I’m ashamed to say I’ve never polished my gelcoat with wax or a polymer protector. I usually just treat the top sides with oxalic acid to remove stains and then rinse it all down.

1. Am I really missing a trick here?

2. If so should I be using carnauba wax or a new type polymer nowadays?

Hi Tim,

Good question.

Nothing to be ashamed of, it may well be the wisest choice if it works for you.

Apologies for delay in seeing your PM (was on holiday).

I wish I had an easy answer for you but the subject is rather complex with many, many variables, too many in fact.

We can point you in the right direction of how to obtain more durability, better surface clarity, less required effort but I’m afraid it won’t come in a bottle as I’m sure you understand.

What has led you to want to start adding wax?
I guess I’m asking what would you like to achieve?
We are all in a similar boat, but current condition, expectations, abilities and willing effort may differ.



Possibly something to add to the thread as a whole:

It has been said that there is what you know, what you don’t know and what you don’t know that you don’t know.
This is very much the case when it comes to surface correction, maintenance and the durability of a protective status.

I will confess early on that I don’t know what I don’t know and despite dedicating a few decades to the subject of surface correction and protection, I still consider myself very much in the learning process.

The truth is at the atomic level and it’s a small world.

Sometimes just asking the right question will produce an answer from common sense:

To wax or not to wax?
Should I be bothered with the effort, or will the effort mean I wont have to be bothered so often?
What final protection product will last the longest?
What techniques will get the surfaces looking their absolute best?
Should my surfaces be hydrophilic or hydrophobic?
Should I polish my wash water down to a low ppm?
Are my surfaces really high clarity without tooling marks, or are they just shiny?
What difference would a higher clarity reflection make on durability?
What difference would removing tooling marks have on durability?

Many variables such as condition, technique, environment and surface material make offering a (one size fits all answer) very difficult, but there are principles or guidelines to stick to (at least for now) the future will be very different.

Firstly, a smooth, flat, uniform surface will accommodate less and degrade slower. The degradation difference between rough and smooth is worth the few microns less in gel coat depth, 1000 microns in a mm.
As others on the thread have proved via pictures is a little effort can go a long way and things end up being very simple indeed. Surface condition IS the main form of protection.

A surface sealed off to oxygen is advisable as this is the main degradation culprit.

Chasing a high clarity reflection will handle light better for looks and degradation, think reflect/bounce.

Follow a safe wash down routine with minimal agitation.

Buy a quality cover for as much of the gel coat as possible.


These are some of the most important instruments in the orchestra.




Robert Wilson
"A timely post, thank you.
I've been wondering for a while about polishing, so ask the wise ones what I should do (and how/what with) about polishing applied* two-pack International paint?

Any advice gratefully received."

Robert 2 seasons is pretty quick for 2 pack International to need polishing through oxidation, are you certain it’s not water scale?

Any pics? Close up




Thinwater

Hi Drew,
I know of no released data results from testing UV & O penetration or substrate damage.
Again I imagine the testing would carry far too many variables for publication that would assist in sales unless all manufacturers followed suit.

Possibly the best they can offer is a guarantee, which is a gamble considering they aren’t controlling the application, or the type of gelcoat it’s being applied to.

I’m certain the bigger concerns would carry out their own accelerated exposure tests, if not to simply improve on their own results thus far.


Tony

 

[Stemar]

Given the proven (in)effectiveness of currently available antifouls, I've often wondered about the possibilities of silicone wax on the hull itself. Has anyone tried it?

Theoretically, it should make the hull slippery enough that fouling can't get a grip and anything that manages to attach itself shouldn't be able to hang on under way, even at the low speeds of a ragtop

 

[Robert Wilson]

Robert Wilson
"A timely post, thank you.
I've been wondering for a while about polishing, so ask the wise ones what I should do (and how/what with) about polishing applied* two-pack International paint?

Any advice gratefully received."

Robert 2 seasons is pretty quick for 2 pack International to need polishing through oxidation, are you certain it’s not water scale?

Any pics? Close up

Hi Tony,
Actually it was more of a question of what if, then when and what?
The hull still looks very good* after two seasons, but I was thinking of preventative rather than remedial treatment.


* Infuriatingly, earlier this year a dinghy with a protruding bolt-head rubbed against the hull and "chipped" a load of small holes through into the white base-coat. Any tips on filling, colouring and fairing/polishing

Mucho appreciado,
Robert
Tony

 

[Marine Reflections]

Given the proven (in)effectiveness of currently available antifouls, I've often wondered about the possibilities of silicone wax on the hull itself. Has anyone tried it?

Theoretically, it should make the hull slippery enough that fouling can't get a grip and anything that manages to attach itself shouldn't be able to hang on under way, even at the low speeds of a ragtop

You're on the right track, but I imagine in the future it will be along the lines of laser etched superhydrophobic surfaces.
It's interesting, start a thread on the subject?

 

[Marine Reflections]

Hi Tony,
Actually it was more of a question of what if, then when and what?
The hull still looks very good* after two seasons, but I was thinking of preventative rather than remedial treatment.


* Infuriatingly, earlier this year a dinghy with a protruding bolt-head rubbed against the hull and "chipped" a load of small holes through into the white base-coat. Any tips on filling, colouring and fairing/polishing

Mucho appreciado,
Robert


Ah, I see, preventative rather than remedial.

So the principles of sealing off to oxygen are the same with paint, in fact for pretty much most marine surfaces.

Oxygen will rob a surface of its atoms (in short) so a sacrificial layer will slow down this process.
Picture an apple with a bite taken out of it and you'll see the importance of a layer that fends off oxygen.

For hullside protective layers you have the choice of how you want the surface to interact with water.
Do you want the water to bead on the surface, or do you want it to sheet off collectively? Hydrophobic or Hydrophillic. This decision is made by how you are going to maintain.

If you choose to have it beading then you'll need to ensure you are able to dry the water droplets, or you'll be left with water scale that will build giving a similar appearance to oxidation. The water droplets remain but evapourate, the particles in the water will remain.
You could always run an in-line filter from the pontoon hose and eliminate this problem. Say £100 per year on a resin vessel and medium.

Alternatively having hullsides that force the water to bind together and run off in a sheet helps to dry the surface, but there are pros and cons with both alternatives.

Superhydrophobic surfaces are different, water would act like clear marbles bouncing off the surface, but we are not there yet in a cost effective application, hydrophobic yes, superhydrophobic - no.

What:
So a good sealer to oxygen is Gtechniq's C1, this is normally followed by their EXO for beading, but left as a base layer it will seal off to oxygen and provide a hydrophillic surface that will sheet water off. It is safe for International 2 pack and gelcoat alike.
I'm sure by now there is an alternative hydrophillic sealer as this industry moves fast.

Filling, colouring and fairing/polishing.
Big questions I'm afraid Robert with big answers and variables that could fill a book.
The technique is very similar to repairing say a stone chip on your car panels; tie, primer and colour to slightly over fill on the colour. Artists brush, Cure for an age and sand down flush, from say 1500 to finishing with very, very fine paper (6000+) so recovery in the polishing is minimal.
This of course depends on the depth, the common mistake is to fill flush with filler, then try to add the paintwork on top, the workings need to meet the outer surface with colour.

Best tip with paint repairs is to get someone to do it, you'll only cry once. Learning how can be fun though and very rewarding.

Tony

 

[Robert Wilson]

Thank you Tony.
Food for thought, but as pontoons are few and far between up here I fear that it would be a once-in-a-while process, whatever that might be.
Khamsin will be ashore again this winter so I'll have a go at the Gtechnic'sC1.
I'll also first experiment with your recommendation on a very minor scratch well under the stern, out of sight to all but fishes and seals!
Although Khamsin is my pride and joy, and painting her in 2016 /17 was a very expensive, hard labour of love. I'm not OTT on her looks; rather I wanted to maintain her in reasonably smart condition and not have to paint her again in my lifetime.......

Much appreciated.

Robert