Warship Courtesy Flag

[HappyHunter]

A visiting yacht or merchant ship flies the red ensign as a courtesy flag. What flag should a visiting warship fly?

In Portsmouth recently I saw a visiting frigate flying a union flag from the "spreaders". It seemed odd. Any forumite vexilloligist able to help?

 

[prv]

A visiting yacht or merchant ship flies the red ensign as a courtesy flag. What flag should a visiting warship fly?

In Portsmouth recently I saw a visiting frigate flying a union flag from the "spreaders". It seemed odd. Any forumite vexilloligist able to help?

I believe the convention is for warships not to fly courtesy flags at all. Something to do with not wanting to acknowledge the superiority of a foreign power.

Presumably this ship from wherever it was from wanted to look friendly, so they put up a "British flag". I can sort of see an argument for warships to fly a small white to mirror our own ships' large white, but there isn't a rule about it because the rule is not to fly one at all.

Pete

 

[HappyHunter]

Thank you. It makes sense. I think it was an American vessel that I saw.

You mention a convention. I have heard that the French gendarmes/douaniers who cruise up and down the pontoons in Cherbourg looking for a soft target for the well known "walk of shame" to the cashpoint for the inevitable fine for something not being in order, look first for those on those not flying a French courtesy flag. Is the flying of this just a convention too or something mandated?

 

[Lizzie_B]

Courtesy flag rules vary from country to country There is no international rule. but a number of countries have their own local law requiring even specific flag sizes. In the UK the convention (not law) is to fly the Red (civil) ensign, but it is not illegal for them to fly the Union Flag as a courtesy. It is illegal for a British civil vessel to fly the Union Flag or any other UK government flag to which it is not entitled any where on board. (I think it highly unikely that anyone would ever be prosecuted, but with a cash strapped government and the right jobsworth!!!).
For warships, there is also no inernational rule. The Navy of each nation has it's own convention or rules, but most do not use them routinely, but will use them for special occasions such as visitng VIP's or national/memorial days of the host nation. I noticed several foriegn warships including French and American flyng courtesy flags over the D Day anniversary period. Another explaination may be that it had the QMH or a British admiral of the fleet on board. A problem with using the home nation's flags is that Ireland and Scotland have meanings in the international flag code and England is the flag for an admiral.

 

[GrahamM376]

We were in some French port a few years ago when a couple of UK mini warships came in without courtesy flags. When I queried this with an officer, was told they don't carry them.

 

[Seajet]

For yachts, it really is a ' courtesy ' to fly the flag of the place one is visiting, from the starboard signal halliard just below the spreader.

Beware of regional arguments, ie Breton flag not tricolour in Brittany, and god help you if you fly a Spanish flag in Castellona !

A Cornish flag when there might help too.

 

[MASH]

Beware of regional arguments, ie Breton flag not tricolour in Brittany, and god help you if you fly a Spanish flag in Castellona !

A Cornish flag when there might help too.

But of course "regional arguments" have nothing to do with nationality, nor do visitors have any business getting involved or pandering to them. Thus flying anything other than the tricolour in Brittany, the Spanish flag in Castellonia (Catalonia??) or the red duster in Cornwall is just plain wrong. I wonder what the advice Seajet would give to a vessel visiting Belfast? Orange? Irish perhaps? Flag of the People's Republic of Hackney when at St Caths? The silliness of doing any of these is self-evident.

Do it right and theres nothing to go wrong. Do it wrong and in some places you may be fined, harassed and offend. Your call, as a courteous yachtsman.

 

[Seajet]

For a start, I worked with a perfectly nice guy from Catalonia ( yes corrected me ta ) but if anyone called him Spanish he'd go nuts and quite violent !

The same goes for Breton & Cornish, but in those cases it might get you better treatment for having the courtesy, rather than an arse kicking up and down the pontoon; the Catalonians are pretty strong in their views !

 

[prv]

But of course "regional arguments" have nothing to do with nationality, nor do visitors have any business getting involved or pandering to them.

I have inherited my great-aunt's flag-bag, including flags for each of the Channel coast départements. So far I've only been to Normandy, where I fly the Norman flag below the French one. That seems proper and polite to me.

If I didn't already have the regional flags I wouldn't bother to get them.

Pete

 

[Robin]

For yachts, it really is a ' courtesy ' to fly the flag of the place one is visiting, from the starboard signal halliard just below the spreader.

Beware of regional arguments, ie Breton flag not tricolour in Brittany, and god help you if you fly a Spanish flag in Castellona !

A Cornish flag when there might help too.

We always flew the French tricoleur with the Breton Flag below it when cruising in Brittany, that way nobody got upset. We did once have a Frenchman in La Rochelle point out we were not still in Brittany mind, but he was laughing.

 

[oldbilbo]

It's my understanding that Portuguese officials get quite obnoxious if one doesn't conform to their ideas of 'courtesy',

 

[Woodlouse]

For a start, I worked with a perfectly nice guy from Catalonia ( yes corrected me ta ) but if anyone called him Spanish he'd go nuts and quite violent !

The same goes for Breton & Cornish, but in those cases it might get you better treatment for having the courtesy, rather than an arse kicking up and down the pontoon; the Catalonians are pretty strong in their views !

All the Catalans I've worked with in the past have had no problems with being referred to as Spanish. One in fact spent an entire transat being called Spaniard. When I was sailing in Barcelona we flew the Spanish flag along with almost all of the other foreign boats.

I would never presume to fly just the Breton flag in Brittany. The correct courtesy flag is the Tricolour and they know it enough not to be offended. I fly the Breton flag under it sometimes but not because I think I'll be treated any differently.

As for Cornwall, if anyone tells you that you should be flying a Cornish flag instead of the correct courtesy flag then most locals would tell him where to go.

 

[Seajet]

Then you have no idea of the term ' courtesy ', so good luck !...

 

[Woodlouse]

Then you have no idea of the term ' courtesy ', so good luck !...

And you have grossly misread the feelings of the majority of people in three regions of Europe. Best of luck to you too.

 

[Seajet]

Try flying the Spanish flag in Catalonia; on the obverse, if you fly the Breton & Cornish flags when applicaple you might get better treatment.

I would love to know which 3 regions of which Europe you refer to, most people like the simple courtesy of the right regional flag; this might mean the difference between an RPG up your transom - or the boats' - or a better bottle of wine.

Still, why not fly the Euro flag everywhere, that's bound to get you good service & lots of friends ?!

 

[Woodlouse]

Try flying the Spanish flag in Catalonia; on the obverse, if you fly the Breton & Cornish flags when applicaple you might get better treatment.

I would love to know which 3 regions of which Europe you refer to, most people like the simple courtesy of the right regional flag; this might mean the difference between an RPG up your transom - or the boats' - or a better bottle of wine.

Still, why not fly the Euro flag everywhere, that's bound to get you good service & lots of friends ?!

You seem to think that just because you once met a Catalan fanatic that you will be lynched for flying a Spanish flag there. Whilst the majority of Catalans are proud to identify themselves as such they also recognise that they are Spanish and it's only a few that want independence. Most will be more than happy with devolved powers from Madrid and more local autonomy whilst remaining part of Spain. As I said, I did fly a Spanish flag when I was in Catalonia, as did most other foreign boats and no comment was made.

In all the years I have sailed in Brittany not once have I met anyone who took offense at boats flying the tricolour, even those I met who spoke Breton almost as a first language did not argue that they weren't French.

Finally, in being born and raised in Cornwall I can only assure you that the majority of people would be happy just to see that you've hoisted the union jack the right way up as a courtesy flag, and even if not they still wouldn't treat you differently.

I accept that there's nothing wrong with flying regional flags when abroad, but it is not the right thing to substitute them for the correct flag.

 

[Seajet]

OK be ignorant then, no problem to me !

 

[Daydream believer]

OK be ignorant then, no problem to me !

In my opinion you are the one who is wrong, not Woodlouse, & you comment is not warranted

 

[capnsensible]

Didn't ever fly a courtesy flag in Russian waters.......

 

[mainsail1]

Having spent a bit of time in the RN I can confirm that British warships do not fly courtesy flags when visiting other countries.