Volvo Update

[DepSol]

Spent 3 hours with the engineer today. going through diffferent things making measurements and so on. I am not saying too much so forgive me at the moment cos I know Volvo access this site and I am best to keep quiet until his report is done.

Facts

It is perceived that water entered pistin number 6 causing it to hydraulic or the bending of the con rod could be caused at start up by the alternator (I think thats what he said I could be wrong)

Then the bent con rod smased the cooling nozzle which broke off.

Over time the piston overheated and started to break up sending bits of aluminium into the engine until the whole thing gave way at the fueling berth.

This has caused the turbo to be knackered and major ear and tear of the motor i.e. you can see copper on the main bearings.

At the momen that is all the facts i can divulge I may be able to answer questions but cannot as yet give out his conclusions.

All AFIAAA IMHO of course cos sometimes I dont hear too well ;-)



Dom


I just want my boat back in the water ;-(

 

[Guest]

Dom,

I suggest you take a look at a Volvo conrod. I'm betting that it's about 3/4" wide, and maybe 1/2" thick, or so. Now imagine it leaning over at maybe 20deg. Now try and imagine the force required to bend it, by simply squeezing from the big and little end bearings. Bloody enormous, yes?

Now, in order to bend one by hydraulicking, you need to fill the bore with enough water to stop the piston from moving, then have the rest of the engine turn over fast enough to bend the bugger. As water is incompressible, once it's bent the conrod, the engine stops. In fact, it stops when the bending of the conrod has absorbed all the available rotational energy from the rest of the engine.

At this point (and this is the important bit I forgot earlier), the cylinder still has water in it with both valves closed (cos it's on the compression stroke), and the engine has stopped dead. You can't crank the engine or restart it, cos the trapped water won't let the engine turn over. The only way to restart the engine is to take out the injector and turn over on the starter. This squirts water out of the injector hole. You then dry the injector, and reinstall it, remembering to reconnect the fuel rail.

Now, unless I'm much mistaken, this is not a procedure you can do while underway at 25kts, and then forget about having done. Unless Soltron addles the brain, of course.

So, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the hydraulicking earlier leading to a later failure theory just doesn't hold water, unlike a cylinder that's just hydraulicked.

Correction: it is just technically possible to bend a rod by hydraulicking, and stil have the engine carry on. You need to ingest exactly the right volume of water to push the piston far enough down to bend the rod, and then let the crank go over TDC and down again. The chances of that are so unlikely, though...<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Graham_Wignall on Thu May 16 18:49:03 2002 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[jfm]

Re: compounded bolx

This engineer's analysis gets more and more unbelievable....

alternator? Dya mean starter motor? Wd be surprised if it had the clout to bend a rod even if the cyl were full of water.

The whole idea that an engine could run for ages with a bent conrod beggars belief. It must have been a decent bend to bust the oil splurter, and if it was a decent bend the engine would have been clanking about with an almighty racket. - unless it was bent in the plane which keeps the big and little ends parallel. But that's the plane in which it is stiffest due to the I section design. What plane was it bent in Dom?

The piston overheat theory also sounds very suspect. remeber, the surface face of the piston is exposed to massive temperature as the fuel burns, some squirt of oil isn't going to make the difference between the aluminium holding together and falling apart, surely?

 

[jfm]

Entirely agree Graham. This notion about hydraulicking and then running on for ages not noticing, is total bolx. Dom is more likely to be struck by lightening every tuesday for 10 years than (a) get water into cyl thru the exhaust valve and (b) get just the right amount so the rod bends but the engine goes past TDC and (c) not friggin notice any of the above (bearing in mind we all listen to our engines and notice if something sounds funny).

Getting angry now Grrrrrr. This engineer is wrong.

 

[hlb]

Bet Volvo are not to happy, if they look on here. We must undo a few tens of thousands of pounds spent on advertising, at a stroke. Maybe we will all get nice new engines, free. Just to shut us up!!
Or maybe Kimotolah gets sacked for having us rabble on here, spoiling the show. Then fake posts from Volvo Gistapo take over.
Shmit. " I've had my V**** for thirty five years now. Without repair and the spare parts and filters are very cheap."
Heir Flugg. " Thats nothing mines been going for sixty years and I havent changed the oil yet!!"

No one can force me to come here-----------
----- I'm a Volunteer!!!

Haydn

 

[BarryH]

I bet none of it sinks in tho! Cos at the end of the day their engines are still being put into new boats. So for the period of the wty, they still gonna get all the overpriced servicing and the mega priced parts income!

What do you mean I cant get the credit?? They're onl spark plugs!!

 

[coliholic]

Who's Engineer, Dom's or volvo's? 'Cos depending on who's paying the bill, will surely depend on his opinion, though from the sound of it it must be Volvo's. I hope.

So again IMHO it's time to get your own engineer in. If it were me I would stay schtum and not try to argue with VP's Engineer. Listen, yes. Make contemporaneous notes, taperecord conversations if possible, but don't try to discuss it yourself. Get expert talking to expert and lawyer talking to lawyer, that's what you're going to pay for. Soon as you start trying to intercede, they'll blind you with quasi science\law and you'll start agreeing with one or more of their points and that's a slippery slope. You need someone who can say "that's bolx" but from a position of authority, not as a layman. IMHO.

 

[hlb]

Ah but I hit lucky when I bought a new boat a good few years ago. Turned out that the Boat yard that I bought it from were not Volvo agents. So the three year waranty was banned before it started. So cheap spares, oil and filters, from day one. Beat that!!

No one can force me to come here-----------
----- I'm a Volunteer!!!

Haydn

 

[Guest]

Have you had the oil tested for its contents, it may be worth the thirty odd pounds for a test for all us VP owners.

 

[DepSol]

Wow so many questions ok here goes

1 It is possible to bend a con rod from the starter moter sorry not alternator
2 con rod shaped like this in the middle )( bent con rod is like this I( bit exagerated but cant do much better with pc as you see one side is straight shortening the con rods length therefore making it hit the cooling jet and breaking it. There is a little hole underneath the piston thet this jet sits in at BDC.
3 Independant Engineer commissioned by the insurers
4 Have an idea how it was caused but wont say yet wait till things have come out a bit between all parties, sorry would love to say but could do me more harm than good at this stage, you guys understand I hope?
5 Oil sample taken
6 Problem identified and possible fix also leave it to insurance company to finalise whats going to happen next.
7 Engineer is suitably qualified and as said before knows where the problem lies a little patience guys will tell all soon.
8 every one surpried at how long it lasted just chipping away at piston crown.
9 swarf everywhere in engine so could be cheaper to have new one.

Any more questions? have I answered all of them??

Dom


I just want my boat back in the water ;-(

 

[jfm]

Sounds like there is some light at end of tunnel, possible deal/fix? Understand you cannot say too much. Bit worried about an insurance being put in charge of proceedings though.....unless they've insured your losses....are they any good? Might you be back afloat while there's still some summer left? Good luck

 

[kimhollamby]

Re: compounded bolx

I can help you with the last par...if the 43 is like the 42 (I'm sure it would be) oil is used to cool the piston crowns. As I said in an earlier post there was a bad batch of 42 pistons where the cooling failed and the results were nothing short of impressive in terms of destruction.

kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[BarryH]

Still say they wont give a toss. The units will still be installed in new boats, and the spares will still be pyrchased at highly inflated prices. One of the only ways it will change is if another engine supplier supplies engines at a lower unit cost.

Once VP start to loose a bit of their share of the market place is the time that they will sit up and take notice of us the customer. Then problems such as Depsol's will be settled with less umms and ahhs.

A few years ago, I had a Johnson outboard that was in warranty. It went wrong. Contacted dealer, they said bring it back. I said I can't. So they sent spanner monkey down. He said you used wrong type 2 stroke!. I said no I haven't. He said oh! ok well sort it.

Of course we could all just go to the HQ and make lot of noise and tell'em that their "Image" isn't that great with us. Pull yer corperate finger out and sort yer house out.



What do you mean I cant get the credit?? They're onl spark plugs!!

 

[MikeBrazier]

I read somewhere, a while ago now, that the reason VP engines are so popular with boat manufacturers is that the payment is not demanded by Volvo Penta until the boat itself is actually sold.

Perhaps if some others did this then things might improve.

I might be wrong about this though.

 

[Piers]

Mine's a pair of Cummins next time....

Piers du Pré
MBM Cruising Club enthusiast
www.dupre.co.uk/fsPlaydeau.htm

 

[tripleace]

I have experience of a hydraulic lock on an engine ( I drove my cosworth through a roadside puddle and the air scoop sucked up a cylinderful.

1. Engine did stop

2. starter motor at first would not turn engine over, but after repeated trying it did and engine with bent con rod did start and run.

I drove the car home with a bent con rod.

Could your engine have stalled and been restarted?

what is being forgotten by posts on this thread is that at certain points the valves do open and allow the water out. If a valve is also damaged the offending water can escape. A hydraulic lock obviously did happen. It does not mean the engine had to stay in this condition

 

[andyball]

Re: compounded bolx

clearly something bent the rod : what else but hydraulic lock could do it?......only queries are whether it happened on starting or when running, & how water(?) got in there. (is no.6 cylinder nearest the exhaust?)

Agree with kim re. oil jet : preventing piston crown damage is exactly what it's for.

 

[ChrisP]

I assume in all this water has actually been detected in the oil etc. so the hydraulicing is the actual cause of the original damage.

Talking to a friend of mine yesterday. He worked for a compressor manufacturer. (sorry names and company must stay unknown due to the possible damage to his projected income). He recounts an incedent with a large recip. compressor. Machine running fine and had been for about 6 weeks. Then large bang and compressor starts a determined course of self destruction. All sorts of excuses and possible causes offered to the operator all with a view to invalidating the manufacturers liability. Final outcome, cylinder valves leaking past due to incorrect setting up during commissioning by manufacturers engineer. Heat build up as gas passes the valve causes valve and seat to burn and bits of metal added to the cylinder. Result piston dammaged and valves destroyed. Con rod bent and partially siezed main bearing. Damage repair costs £250,000.00 and loss of product never estimated.
Whilst this particular machine was not on Oxy service. most of the manufacturers now fit valve temp monitors to Oxy machines to alert the operator of problems.

Just a thought but with Volvo's record of valve failures (ask Kim)...............

What do you mean the sea gull in front's walking !!!

 

[Will_M]

I dont disrigard anyones compents here, but its not bolx... It is totally possible for an engine to run with a bent rod, for what ever reason it bent in the first instance.

 

[Guest]

Quite agree, Will. Having got the water out of mine, it ran, albeit a little smokily, for years without problem. But th eactual hydraulicking incident is not something you might miss. You reminded me, BTW, I was in a friend's XR3i when he hit a puddle and hydraulicked (restarted eventually, but put a conrod through the block within a mile). Must be something about Ford's intakes...