Volunteer Border Force

[pks1702]

I agree with your comments about the full time professional Border Force officers. I suspect the comment was referring to the kind of person who self-selects to be a part time pseudo-officer - and that I can relate to as well.

Ah thanks for the clarification.

Fully agree if we are talking about Warden Hodges types

 

[Javelin]

Well the panel have certainly put me in my place and identified that apparently anyone believing the idea has any credibility must have a little Hitler complex just bursting to be unleashed on the public.
I do take Plum's comment that there is a reporting process in place already but this is very much a one way communication.
Rarely are we informed of the bigger picture stuff until after the event.
For example the Bav with 23 Ukrainians that arrived in Southwold the other month was just one failed attempt, along with another back in April at Orford, however apparently this particular gang had been sending a boat over once a week from Feburary 2017 to various ports up and down the east coast.
It follows that there must be other groups doing the same thing, not to mention drug running where we often see dumped drugs in bags washed up on our shores.
I can't see that there would ever be the funding available to adequately resource Border force given that kind of scale.

When that Bavaria arrived at Southwold the Alert was off the Blackwater and had to steam up.
It took five hours before anyone was in a position to confirm that the boat had arrived and where it was moored.
A similar situation in delay of arrival information also happened in 2016 in Orford which lead to the police and others blasting around in circles trying to catch them.

I envisioned that the role would be purely providing local intelligence to the Professionals to action on.
They would contact giving a heads up and you would then report.

Now where did I put those jack boots..................

 

[halcyon]

I envisioned that the role would be purely providing local intelligence to the Professionals to action on.
They would contact giving a heads up and you would then report.

Now where did I put those jack boots..................

That was the system back in the 80's, Blair shut it down. Local boatyards and marinas would advise local Customs of odd people or actions. in some cases setting up a watch for Customs.

Brian

 

[Capt Popeye]

Humm an absolutely great well thought idea, might suggest that it is the Locals who can spot irregularities in behavior and actions, far more that those employed and wearing uniforms plus badges.
How can an officer in any uniform blend in and go unnoticed as an observer ?
Yep trust the locals, those working, sailing, foreshore walking etc etc = far better than any Paid staff member, and of course local Fishermen and Anglers.
We do already have Special Constables working with the Police Forces, but would not suggest them, as they have scheduled duties, wear a uniform and badges, NO what is really required if a casual approach covering all and any hours, especially those High Tides after dark.

As to the few someway destructive comments about training and authority to board and search, suggest that that's getting the wrong end of a stick, as one might say. That is I suggest. We need observers and reporters all answerable to the appropriate authorities

 

[Poignard]

If these people are not to be paid and are not to have the satisfaction of strutting around in a uniform looking important and impressing the girls, in what way do they differ from the ordinary man in the street (or on the quay) who sees something illegal going on and reports it to the police?

 

[pvb]

If these people are not to be paid and are not to have the satisfaction of strutting around in a uniform looking important and impressing the girls, in what way do they differ from the ordinary man in the street (or on the quay) who sees something illegal going on and reports it to the police?

Exactly. Wouldn't any of us, if we spotted something dodgy going on, immediately alert the authorities? Trying to formalise the arrangement is merely box-ticking.

 

[Poecheng]

Exactly. Wouldn't any of us, if we spotted something dodgy going on, immediately alert the authorities? Trying to formalise the arrangement is merely box-ticking.

It just gives the authorities a liaison point - they will check you out and know they can trust you. If they want to know about something near Southwold then everyone here would naturally ask Javelin - it should be the same with the authorities. It doesn't require Mike to be in a peaked hat or jack boots, just someone 'on the ground' that knows the area and can guide others to do their job better on our behalf.
There is a complete lack of real local knowledge with the BF and that is what they sometimes need when dealing with bad people.

 

[pvb]

It just gives the authorities a liaison point - they will check you out and know they can trust you. If they want to know about something near Southwold then everyone here would naturally ask Javelin - it should be the same with the authorities. It doesn't require Mike to be in a peaked hat or jack boots, just someone 'on the ground' that knows the area and can guide others to do their job better on our behalf.
There is a complete lack of real local knowledge with the BF and that is what they sometimes need when dealing with bad people.

That assumes that the Border Force already know that there's something going on. My point is that all of us would presumably report anything suspicious. Formalising local representation through some PCSO-type system will give few benefits.

 

[Prasutigus]

Exactly. Wouldn't any of us, if we spotted something dodgy going on, immediately alert the authorities? Trying to formalise the arrangement is merely box-ticking.

My thoughts as well.

 

[Poecheng]

That assumes that the Border Force already know that there's something going on. My point is that all of us would presumably report anything suspicious. Formalising local representation through some PCSO-type system will give few benefits.

I believe that sometimes the threshold for reporting something as suspicious is fairly high and we feel a need to be able to clearly justify it - it probably is 'very suspicious' for most to report it.
If you already have a clear line of communication, it is easier to pick up the phone as they will know you are not just a nutter with a wild imagination. Those hunches that come about through human intuition are not always easy to articulate and explain but they do need to be communicated even if the receiver doesn't accord them much priority.

Again, to use Javelin as an example, if he rang and said 'boat coming in and really ought not to be coming in to harbour at this time, these conditions etc and no radio comms' then Javelin's suspicion is worth something and should carry more weight than me as an unknown person ringing up - even if I could explain it better 'large boat, deep keel, coming in on ebb and at night etc'

The other thing is that the local specialist will understand more of the circumstances and what is right and wrong - BF won't know if a boat is on its own mooring or has just snaffled a mooring it ought not to be on ('thats PVB's mooring and I know he is coming back tomorrow and would have mentioned it if given permission'). Lots of little things that BF could not be expected to know

 

[Javelin]

Exactly. Wouldn't any of us, if we spotted something dodgy going on, immediately alert the authorities?

Yes, totally agree but in the years I've been here I can think of only two occasions that felt "dodgy" and neither ended up as being so.

There is nothing Dodgy about a Dutch flagged Bav 43 entering Southwold just before High water with 4 visible crew.
In hindsight there was something dodgy about where they moored but is that really enough to warrant an alert?
If however you had been given a heads up before hand then the story would be very different.
In this case there was a heads up available but with the HM gone home (lives 30 miles away) for the night there was no one to contact.

 

[pks1702]

Sorry if my post was the one that caused you sleight Mike no intention to associate this with you. I was merley thinking of uniformed unpaid personell some of who in my experience as has been outlined do let things go to their head, not all but some.

From my chats with the Border Force they know they are under resourced and one of the reasons for mooring at Marina's (apart from the vessels they have not designed for long term live aboard) is to interact with local boaters and get the message accross they can only cover the coast with the help of eyes on the ground. Anything suspicios report it we were urged, whether they can get ther in time is another matter!

I don't really see what volunteers could do that eyes and ears on the ground can't; provided the resource is in the vicinity to deal with it.

 

[matthewriches]

When the last saga happened here at Southwold, I was onboard that night asleep. It did wake me, I thought it was strange that a boat was about at such a funny time but never thought nothing of it. It was lit correctly, didn't appear to "not know" what it was doing. Nor was it racing up at a rate of knots or banging and crashing into everything. Had it have been doing one of the aforementioned, it may have sparked a query but it just looked "right".

I only thought about it when Alert, the big grey mofo of a rib when roaring past causing my boat to shake up and down like a force 8 gale! Followed by a million 4x4 vehicles racing up and down the gravel road.

On that occasion, I am led to believe it was even transponding AIS so even had I have been "on watch", I'd have assumed it was legit just on that basis!

A very difficult subject really but lots of thoughts on it. Big harbours and rivers have VTS, etc so are a no go for illegal landing. Hence the small harbours being a good place to try. What have other countries got in place currently to stop or put a deterrent on this?

As I sit here on the Blyth river now typing this, I am naturally a lot more vigilant on any movements, as to have another slip past me within boat hook distance isn't going to happen :encouragement:

 

[Plum]

Yes, totally agree but in the years I've been here I can think of only two occasions that felt "dodgy" and neither ended up as being so.

There is nothing Dodgy about a Dutch flagged Bav 43 entering Southwold just before High water with 4 visible crew.
In hindsight there was something dodgy about where they moored but is that really enough to warrant an alert?
If however you had been given a heads up before hand then the story would be very different.
In this case there was a heads up available but with the HM gone home (lives 30 miles away) for the night there was no one to contact.

We all need to share the method of reporting anything suspicious. You may not always get an imediate response but all intelligence is collected.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1650034101706398&id=283507508359071&__tn__=*s*s-R

 

[PeterWright]

I have just read this thread and am quite astonished at the negative reaction to the sensible innocuous proposal to improve our sadly deficient border control arrangements. For whatever reason (possibly the English language) the UK remains a much moe popular destination than most other developed countries for economic migrants from poorer countries - if you want evidence of that just look at the lengths people in Calais and other channel ports are willing to go to in order to enter the UK illegally.

All that's been reported so far is considering the use of volunteers to assist in monitoring what's happening in the smaller ports where a full time Border Control staff would be disproportionally expensive. No-one has suggested that these volunteers be uniformed nor that they would have any right to board, search or arrest. Why, then, such a negative reaction? It seems to me the proposal is just a common sense way of extending the benefits of Project Kraken. As Javelin rightly points out, locals who are specifically briefed on what to look out for will spot a lot more than those who do not have the benefit of relevant Border Agency intelligence.

So Javelin, in response to your OP, I share your view that it's a good idea and hope that it will bear fruit in the near future. Of course, ere will be some who get excessively officious - there are pillocks in all walks of life, both professional and volunteer, but I have faith in humanity and believe the majority who choose to volunteer for such roles, like the RNLI crews, will be doing so for the best of motives. People like you and your staff at HMS would be ideally placed to volunteer for this, if you felt so inclined.

Peter.

 

[Capt Popeye]

I have just read this thread and am quite astonished at the negative reaction to the sensible innocuous proposal to improve our sadly deficient border control arrangements. For whatever reason (possibly the English language) the UK remains a much moe popular destination than most other developed countries for economic migrants from poorer countries - if you want evidence of that just look at the lengths people in Calais and other channel ports are willing to go to in order to enter the UK illegally.

All that's been reported so far is considering the use of volunteers to assist in monitoring what's happening in the smaller ports where a full time Border Control staff would be disproportionally expensive. No-one has suggested that these volunteers be uniformed nor that they would have any right to board, search or arrest. Why, then, such a negative reaction? It seems to me the proposal is just a common sense way of extending the benefits of Project Kraken. As Javelin rightly points out, locals who are specifically briefed on what to look out for will spot a lot more than those who do not have the benefit of relevant Border Agency intelligence.

So Javelin, in response to your OP, I share your view that it's a good idea and hope that it will bear fruit in the near future. Of course, ere will be some who get excessively officious - there are pillocks in all walks of life, both professional and volunteer, but I have faith in humanity and believe the majority who choose to volunteer for such roles, like the RNLI crews, will be doing so for the best of motives. People like you and your staff at HMS would be ideally placed to volunteer for this, if you felt so inclined.

Peter.

Humm yes thank you kind Sir; might suggest that its a most sensible post covering the situation in a practical and efficient way to ensure satisfactory results. {#

 

[Boz]

I have never really understood why all sea going vessels are not required to have an AIS transponder. Vessels capable of making extended sea passages with no AIS or sudden disappearances on the AIS displays would surely standout?

Not foolproof, I agree, but would provide a useful filter.......

 

[LittleSister]

not to mention drug running where we often see dumped drugs in bags washed up on our shores.
I can't see that there would ever be the funding available to adequately resource Border force given that kind of scale.

I don't know: with all those bags of drugs it sounds like it could be self-financing!

 

[Prasutigus]

I have never really understood why all sea going vessels are not required to have an AIS transponder. Vessels capable of making extended sea passages with no AIS or sudden disappearances on the AIS displays would surely standout?

Not foolproof, I agree, but would provide a useful filter.......

Greetings.
sorry to contradict you, but it would be pointless. Anyone can programme anything into an AIS transponder!
A ludicrous idea, and utterly unenforceable.
Happy new year.

 

[oldgit]

for every populated small harbour or river in the greater Thames Esturary, there are long isolated stretches of sea wall/ creeks and saltings available for landing unwelcome guests.
Recruiting a keen observer exactly where there are probably several pairs of eyes already, may merely have a feel good factor.
A more effective answer could be an actual boat with actual crew capable of being out there 24/7 between Boston and North Foreland in mid January.
You get exactly what you are prepared for.
Is the emergency tug still on station at Dover ?