geem
Well-Known Member
After owning this Spade anchor since 2021. I might be! Admittedly, it's been heavily used but it does look like it's about 15 years old not 3
Viking Anchors have an other model, Odin
- Thread starter Neeves
- Start date
Bouba
Well-Known Member
A bit of steel wool and it will buff up like new
.....and that is not a Lewmar bow roller is it
geem
Well-Known Member
The bow roller is 12mm s/s plate. Designed to sail through the hull of an AWB in a collisionA bit of steel wool and it will buff up like new
rogerthebodger
Well-Known Member
I built my own that works OK for me
Just welded it together and has it galvanized
Cost a lot less that all the others for sale
Just welded it together and has it galvanized
Cost a lot less that all the others for sale
Bouba
Well-Known Member
I have a plasma cutter and welder....so I probably could weld one up....but it would have to be all welded, I don’t think I could bend that thickness. What design did you use ?
rogerthebodger
Well-Known Member
Mine is similar to a spade.
I cut mine blade and shank out with oxy acetylene, but plasma would do OK even stainless steel then stick of MIG the two parts together.
I cut a hole in my blade so I could insert the shank in and weld on both sides
A local engineering works bent he curve in my blade for me but a simple 20 to jack press could also do the bend depending on thicknesss of the steel
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Its slightly more difficult to bend 800 MPa steel than a standard steel of 300 MPa - so depends on what steel is being used and what steel you can source. Welding of 800 MPa needs special care. It would be very difficult to bend an Odin fluke, even in mild steel, with the equipment most of have at home - you need something a bit more professional than a big engineers vice with a 6" jaw.
None of this is secret - If you look at either the Bisalloy or SSAB websites you will find specific instructions on bending and welding.
The industry 'standard' for shanks is around 800 MPa, made famous by Rocna. There is no point in sourcing a high MPa steel and then reducing its strength at the weld by incorrect welding. The shank would be fine - but it would bend at the weld.
It would be a bit of a waste not to try to regal it - especially as you are back home, I assume for the winter.
Melt out the lead, attack with a stainless wire brush on an angle grinder. Publicise here you are ready to re-galvanise and/or ask for a galvaniser who might do 'small' parts or find someone who wants to re-gal their chain. The galvaniser will pickle it to clean it. A crate of beer or maybe as its only an anchor, a 6 pack, can be very persuasive, galvanising, especially in the summer, is hot work.
Melting out the lead simply needs a blow torch. You can get cheap blow torches that attach to those single use gas cylinders. It just needs patience and care. If you like the idea
- I did a small one and documented here on PBO, something like 'regalvanising a Spade'. Yours a bit bigger - but the concept is the same.When you get the anchor home, regalvanised, melt the lead back in (adding any you lost) and cover the top of the now cooled lead with a layer of resin to seal it.
If you cannot find the thread, I'll have a search and/or take you through it step by step.
Its not rocket science, most of it is obvious.
Jonathan
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Neeves
Well-Known Member
But possibly made by someone who measured a Lewmar (or at that time Simpson Lawrence) bow roller for the rough dimensions. Both Delta and Fortress were released in the late 80's and the motivation for SL to design the Delta was that Bruce were eating into their market for the CQR. So Bruce must have been in the early 80's. Delta and Bruce would have been the best thing since sliced bread. I think Spade was early 90s.A bit of steel wool and it will buff up like new
The leader of the design team for Delta, I forget his name, used to lecture on anchor choice round Glasgow and even then the idea of catching mud in the fluke of a concave anchor was a strong theme. He used to balance a tennis ball in the fluke of a Bruce (showing how easy it was to collect mud) and challenge anyone to hold a tennis ball in the fluke of a Delta
.Again its not rocket science - though looking at your bow roller it is, or was, heavy engineering. A decent job for an ocean going yacht.
Jonathan
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Neeves
Well-Known Member
Show me a rode with a Rocna, Delta (take your choice) used as frequently as yours whose chain and anchor do not need to be regalvanised.
Industry standards for galvanising is around 70 microns, varies depending on the local standards. This is fine for rebar, bolts and steel beams - but they never see abrasion. Galvanising does abrade, in the same way any metal will abrade when stuck in and then dragged through abrasive sand. You can galvanise more thickly than 70 microns, but not by much, as when you try to get a thick coating it does not alloy correctly to the underlying steel and peels off.
However based on the level of complaints directed at Spade, maybe they should address the issue.
In Spades defence - their anchors are the design of choice by many blue water sailors who tend to anchor frequently, as opposed to those that are only able to sail and anchor for the occasional weekend.
It may be Spade do not have an issue - they are simply criticised because of their own success - the anchors are used much more frequently than other design of anchor. I also see plenty of rusty, or painted, Rocna's, genuine Bruce......
Similarly I read lots of threads on rusting chain and how to regalvanise - why would one expect the chain to need to be regalvanised and not the anchor. They are both galvanised initially to exactly the same standards, the chain and anchor are used together and by and large all galvanisers follow identical practices.
Maybe we should consider not knocking Spade?
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-Known Member
I was re-thinking this and then thought you had a point, which I was ignoring.My logic is that its a bit like a keyboard .....they have evolved mightily since the earliest of typewriters....but the inherent flaw of the original QWERTY layout holds all keyboards back. And if we didn’t start with a Lewmar bow roller....then perhaps we would now be much more advanced.....thank you for your complete answer
If we look at oil rig anchors there are developments that we don't see on 'our' anchors, or not commonly.
Recalling the Bruce anchor - with time and development it morphed into this anchor:
This Bruce anchor is said to be self righting, like the Odin, but has 2 toes. Unlike the original Bruce it is fabricated rather than cast.
I made a miniature version of this current Bruce anchor - but could not get it to self right.
Look for our anchors that have two toes, and you will be lucky to see any, yet they are common place in the oil industry.
The first one is quite big, I recall it was used as a kedge to pull the bow off the wharf.
These are more our size
Were they constrained by the design of our bow rollers, allowing the toes to damage the gel coat...?
The other characteristic of oil rig anchors is the twin shank. Its obviously strong, or it would not be used, but it would never fit on our bow roller.
Except that Ultra and Spade have a variation - its a twin walled shank, but welded to a whole - with a brace down the centre (or top, for Spade). We might have the brace(s) horizontal, like a ladder - but it would never fit on our bow rollers - our bow rollers demand a heavy duty shank, for a 15kg anchor 15mm thick plate - which could be made from, maybe, 2 pieces of 4mm HT steel, saving 50% of the weight.
Jonathan
geem
Well-Known Member
I will have it galvanised along with my 2 year old chain and some new engine bearers I need to make.Its slightly more difficult to bend 800 MPa steel than a standard steel of 300 MPa - so depends on what steel is being used and what steel you can source. Welding of 800 MPa needs special care. It would be very difficult to bend an Odin fluke, even in mild steel, with the equipment most of have at home - you need something a bit more professional than a big engineers vice with a 6" jaw.
None of this is secret - If you look at either the Bisalloy or SSAB websites you will find specific instructions on bending and welding.
The industry 'standard' for shanks is around 800 MPa, made famous by Rocna. There is no point in sourcing a high MPa steel and then reducing its strength at the weld by incorrect welding. The shank would be fine - but it would bend at the weld.
It would be a bit of a waste not to try to regal it - especially as you are back home, I assume for the winter.
Melt out the lead, attack with a stainless wire brush on an angle grinder. Publicise here you are ready to re-galvanise and/or ask for a galvaniser who might do 'small' parts or find someone who wants to re-gal their chain. The galvaniser will pickle it to clean it. A crate of beer or maybe as its only an anchor, a 6 pack, can be very persuasive, galvanising, especially in the summer, is hot work.
Melting out the lead simply needs a blow torch. You can get cheap blow torches that attach to those single use gas cylinders. It just needs patience and care. If you like the idea
When you get the anchor home, regalvanised, melt the lead back in (adding any you lost) and cover the top of the now cooled lead with a layer of resin to seal it.
If you cannot find the thread, I'll have a search and/or take you through it step by step.
Its not rocket science, most of it is obvious.
Jonathan
I have details of a galvaniser with a chain spinner already
Neeves
Well-Known Member
You illustrate the issue, the chain needs re-galvanising after 2 years and the anchor needs re-galvanising age 3 years. They both suffer similar abrasion, though the anchor is the one grinding through the seabed. You may also end for end the chain extending life - cannot do that with an anchor
But Spade gets the bad press.
I recall the same criticism of Maggi chain it only lasted 4 years when used by 365 day long term cruisers. If the constant negativity resulted in Maggi's financial issues....? the market place is at fault and too easy to criticise (as with Spade)
We have unrealistic expectations - its a 70 micron coating - its nothing. I'm impressed it lasts so long.
The steel from which the chain is made, in most cases, is less abrasion resistant than the gal (which is harder). The longer you leave the chain without regalvanising the more steel (of the chain) is being lost. You could increase the gal coating a bit - but in the grand scheme of things it will make little difference.
We have a galvanised platform cantilever out of the steep plot of our land. The car sits on top. We are 150m roughly from the sea - so a corrosive environment. It has a standard 70 micron coating. no abrasion, no corrosion, at all.
Edit
And its 20 years old
Jonathan
If you anchor in mud, it may have lower abrasive characteristics but it might (will) be acidic and possibly dissolve the gal coating (and the steel) more quickly than any abrasive seabed.
This the effect of acidic muds, some of the links have perfect gal - the steel has been ...eaten
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Neeves
Well-Known Member
There is a summary of initial reports, compiled by the manufacturer, on their Facebook page
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I confirm I have no financial interest in Viking - I like to see innovation and new products from new entrants.
Jonathan
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Jonathan
Neeves
Well-Known Member
For those hoping that there might be a test of Odin by Steve Godwin aka Panope. Apparently Steve has sold his 'work' boat and seems unlikely to do further testing, though presumably he might be persuaded. He suggests he could use his father's boat, without mentioning any detail of the vessel.
Viking anchors-the next level - Page 4 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
Post 57.
Jonathan
Viking anchors-the next level - Page 4 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
Post 57.
Jonathan
doug748
Well-Known Member
The photographs illustrate the problem with Spade anchors:
A look around a marina shows most of them are like that, seems to be regardless of level of use. Nor are they simple to refurbish.
A Spade anchor produced by someone else would be good - maybe the Scots who make such a good job of the Knox.
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A look around a marina shows most of them are like that, seems to be regardless of level of use. Nor are they simple to refurbish.
A Spade anchor produced by someone else would be good - maybe the Scots who make such a good job of the Knox.
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Neeves
Well-Known Member
This just what you need, novel new design
MarineNow Galvanized Steel Shovel/Scoop Style Anchor with Roll Bar Choose Size
The questions would be
What's wrong with it.
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-Known Member
You are quite correct - anchor makers, well some of them do give me anchors to review.
I wonder why they give them out free of charge?
Just check how much an apparently 'state of the art' 15kg anchors costs' and you might get your answer.
But to answer the underlying accusation in your post.
An anchor maker submitted an anchor, to me, for review. I wrote up the review and sent it to the publisher. The publisher, its a common practice, reviewed my article and sent a copy of the edited review to the anchor maker (to allow the manufacturer opportunity to comment on any technical faults in the script).
The manufacturer complained to the editor "But I gave Neeves a free anchor - and he has condemned it". The article was published.
I used to receive free samples, over a number of years, from one specific manufacturer - this is an edited list... the chain hook failed factorially below the claimed UTS, the swivel was too big, and anchor showed a total lack of understanding of anchor design. The reviews were published. The hook was eventually withdrawn, the swivel is still marketed, the anchor was part modified - did the manufacturer thank me? of course not
and I don't get freebies any more from this supplier.
In common with others who test anchors, I'm not so flush I'm going to buy an anchor to review (airfreighted).
Being arrogant I think its your loss - anchor testing, or much testing, is expensive and time consuming - if 'we' don't receive free anchors - we will not test them. Magazines cannot afford to buy anchors and pay for testing, in case you had not noticed magazines have their backs to the wall. The 'internet' does not provide a commercially accepted mechanism to buy anchors, pay for the necessary equipment and cover the costs of time needed to test.
Just go and read the recent report of the Fortress, Chesapeake, test that is the most recent test conducted (and conducted by an anchor maker) - anchor tests are a thing of the past, Steve Godwin (aka Panope) has dropped out.
You depend on altruism - but it does not extend to buying every new anchor that comes onto the market, Epsilon, Mantus M2, Odin, Rocna Mark 2, The Lewmar FX clone.
Jonathan
Bouba
Well-Known Member
What is wrong with it ?
It looks like a Rocna…..is it a knockoff or new design?
geem
Well-Known Member
I have had my Spade anchor galvanised. Extracting the lead wasn't so hard. One of those burners used by roofers that do flat roofs got it our pretty easily. I used a blowtorch with Mapgas to put the lead back. I sealed it with some epoxy resin. Today, I will paint the yellow bit back on. It will be interesting to see how the galvanising compares to the original Spade galvanising as I will be doing the same route back to the Caribbean as I did in 2021. The original Spade galvanising was failing within 12 months.
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
For the selling price it can only be made from the cheapest mild steel. History tells us that when some Rocna anchors were made with soft shanks they bent. The resulting furore caused the company to collapse until bought out by the current owners