Tranona
Well-Known Member
You may well be right. Still cheap compared with building up with real wood.
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Victoria 34 and 38
- Thread starter Javelin
- Start date
You may well be right. Still cheap compared with building up with real wood.
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
It's also good for computing glacier dynamics
I was involved in using FE for that in about 1984, and still have a textbook on my shelf! Then the main problem was solving the large set of simultaneous equations, but in those days a large University mainframe only allowed about 400k of memory per task! A modern desktop PC should have no trouble.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Absolutely, and rather disappointing at the price whichever it is. Looks a bit beach hut to me, even if properly done but I suspect that's the CC26/R35 market.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
I spent years of my life writing a FE system which started off on a Pentium at 90MHz and ended up on A P4 at 2,4GHz, And still the biggest speed-up came from discovering a new algorithm.
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
Every so often a thread pops up extolling the virtues of an old design and critical of modern production boats.
It appears to me that most of the enthusiasts for old designs would never buy a new boat even if to an old design - someone asked how many rustlers were sold last year - silence.
The fact is that all boat builders are struggling including the quality boatbuilders.
Boatbuilders are producing boats that buyers (not dreamers) want to buy possibly because they have reduced the price with cost efficient production.
Dream on!
For most of us its hard to justify buying a quality boat like an Oyster, HR or Najad or even a Southerly (if they were not bust) and we buy production boats that offer excellent value and design progress.
I think there are a number of different boat owners and others.
1. People who buy a secondhand boat they can afford
2. People who buy a new production boat possibly assisted by a marine mortgage
3. People who are successful or fortunate with inheritance who can afford a quality boat costing 2 to 5x the cost of an equivalent production boat
and Dreamers that think old designs are better and wax lyrically over why they (or so few) are not built anymore - unfortunately these boatbuilders like Victoria have all gone bust cause the dreamers would never have sufficient funds to buy such a boat (or the reality of the actual cost and value for money sinks in).
I will now hide!!
It appears to me that most of the enthusiasts for old designs would never buy a new boat even if to an old design - someone asked how many rustlers were sold last year - silence.
The fact is that all boat builders are struggling including the quality boatbuilders.
Boatbuilders are producing boats that buyers (not dreamers) want to buy possibly because they have reduced the price with cost efficient production.
Dream on!
For most of us its hard to justify buying a quality boat like an Oyster, HR or Najad or even a Southerly (if they were not bust) and we buy production boats that offer excellent value and design progress.
I think there are a number of different boat owners and others.
1. People who buy a secondhand boat they can afford
2. People who buy a new production boat possibly assisted by a marine mortgage
3. People who are successful or fortunate with inheritance who can afford a quality boat costing 2 to 5x the cost of an equivalent production boat
and Dreamers that think old designs are better and wax lyrically over why they (or so few) are not built anymore - unfortunately these boatbuilders like Victoria have all gone bust cause the dreamers would never have sufficient funds to buy such a boat (or the reality of the actual cost and value for money sinks in).
I will now hide!!
oldvarnish
Well-Known Member
Your argument is somewhat undermined by the fact that Victoria, like many other UK boatbuilders, went bust with a full order book.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
But still penny numbers and went bust because customers were not prepared to pay a price that covered the cost of building the boat, never mind make a profit for the builder.
robmcg
Well-Known Member
oldvarnish
Well-Known Member
I don't think that's right. A full order book suggests that owners are prepared to pay the price.
The demise of boat builders is more often due to over-borrowing, cash flow difficulties and mismanagement - none of which I accuse Victoria of.
TimBennet
Well-Known Member
But what price? We'll never know if they were prepared to pay the full cost of actually building the boats including servicing the builder's debt, investing in the future and making a decent profit for their share holders or owners.
Sadly the ticket price on the boats from so many UK builders in the past has been what they think the market will stand, which fatally has usually been less than they cost to build.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
I am reminded of a story from the days when David Brown (of tractor fame) took over Aston Martin. A friend asked DB if he would let him buy one at cost. "With pleasure," DB replied, "It'll be the only one I won't make a loss on."
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Builders like that are always desperate to get the next order to keep the show on the road so start giving away profit to get the order. So achieved prices fall in relation to costs. Add in a bit of wasteful expense on things like boat shows plus operational inefficiencies and the result is inevitable.
jac
Well-Known Member
I suspect you're right but again, doesn't this come back to some UK builders historically trying to compete with swan/ oyster/ HR on quality and Ben/Jen/Bav on price.
My contention is that there is a middle ground. More conservative, sailing focussed designs (vic,rustler etc) but built with modern techniques and to Ben/Jen/Bav standards. They won't match AWB efficiency or sales volumes of course but don't need to be as expensive as they are.
oldvarnish
Well-Known Member
Agreed. I slightly misunderstood tranona's point
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Which implies very high start-up costs - to equip a modern factory equipped with all the latest hi-tech laser cutting autoclave kevlar infused geegaws.
So if they have to recover start-up costs, sell fewer boats, don't match AWB efficiency and are sold for less, how is that a sustainable business model?
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Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Oyster was a British boat seller ( i won't say " builder" because I understand that in the beginning they used a simple business model of subbing it out & ordering against sales)
A farmer ( with 5000 acres) who I noticed having eggs delivered said to me when i commented on it " You can always buy them cheaper than you can produce them"
jac
Well-Known Member
There's leading edge and then there is following some good practice. So rather than hand building everything subcontract some of it to others, use more interior mouldings, build in modules and drop in.
And when we say sell for less, the key part you omitted is to sell for less than Rustler etc but probably more than Ben/Jen/Bav.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
There is a sort of precedent for this notion: Northshore build boats for Victoria, Fisher, Southerly and others while Windboats have built them for Oyster. Not huge economies of scale, perhaps, as all those were/are fairly luxury brands, but perhaps there would be scope for a modern production line which could turn out boats for lots of different companies. Cheaper than handcrafted, if perhaps still dearer than mass production. Hell of an investment, though.
Bavaria Jachtbau is running at about half capacity now. I wonder if they could bash out some Victorias? Semi serious question.
GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
Moody attempted to match the competition with some of the later boats but didn't like the build quality they would be forced to use. IIRC they made the same profit on 1 x 47ft boat as 7 x 38s. They are now built by Hanse and as far as I'm concerned are no longer Moodies, whatever the name.
Javelin
Well-Known Member
Whether or not you could make a profitable business building and selling yachts alone is, I agree, a difficult and fraught adventure into the unknown.
However if you have an existing profitable business that uses similar skills, equipment and facilities and crucially has spare capacity, many of the hurdles of a start-up are avoided.
Indeed it could be argued that renovation work is much harder than a new build as you're not firstly involved in a rot chase with the associated dismantling.
Hull and Deck laminating can be subbed out using a detailed spec and then shipped to the yard for fitting out.
In this case the major tooling already exists and so tooling amortisation costs would be significantly reduced.
Yes new tooling would be required for the internal fit out but these costs in my view would not be a show stopper.
Economies of scale would hit us with the purchase of the selected kit, from cookers to rig and sails compared to the big boys,
However we are still a significant buyer of all associated kit in the day to day running of the yard so increasing our spend via new build also improves our negotiating power.
The other aspect to consider is why.
If we wanted just to build new and sell than we'd go for a 20' to 25' general purpose fishing boat/punt - something like an Arvor, as they sell and are cheap and easy to build.
A yacht is very different animal, but not any yacht, a yacht with a pedigree, an expectation of quality and seaworthiness, with a following and an aura worth living up to and maintaining.
A Contessa 32 for example (ah someone beat us too it)
Whether the Vic is that yacht I'm not totally sure, which is why I asked the question in the first place.
However if you have an existing profitable business that uses similar skills, equipment and facilities and crucially has spare capacity, many of the hurdles of a start-up are avoided.
Indeed it could be argued that renovation work is much harder than a new build as you're not firstly involved in a rot chase with the associated dismantling.
Hull and Deck laminating can be subbed out using a detailed spec and then shipped to the yard for fitting out.
In this case the major tooling already exists and so tooling amortisation costs would be significantly reduced.
Yes new tooling would be required for the internal fit out but these costs in my view would not be a show stopper.
Economies of scale would hit us with the purchase of the selected kit, from cookers to rig and sails compared to the big boys,
However we are still a significant buyer of all associated kit in the day to day running of the yard so increasing our spend via new build also improves our negotiating power.
The other aspect to consider is why.
If we wanted just to build new and sell than we'd go for a 20' to 25' general purpose fishing boat/punt - something like an Arvor, as they sell and are cheap and easy to build.
A yacht is very different animal, but not any yacht, a yacht with a pedigree, an expectation of quality and seaworthiness, with a following and an aura worth living up to and maintaining.
A Contessa 32 for example (ah someone beat us too it)
Whether the Vic is that yacht I'm not totally sure, which is why I asked the question in the first place.
