Victoria 34 and 38

[Tranona]

Who cares? My boat is uncertified - does that make it less safe than identical boats which, three years later, had to have a users manual and a plaque for one day to get a Cat B certificate? Sure, if you're buying a radical new design in might be useful to know that some stability calculations have been done, but he design of a home finished V34 would be fundamentally as good as any other V34. Of course it could be compromised by the constructions, but you can make any alterations you like to a certified boat the day after it's launched ...

When people buy Cat A ocean cruisers secondhand, do they have them carefully examined to make sure they are still in category? As a matter of interest, what category is your classic boat?

I can see a point to the RCD, but I think its importance to the boat buying public is greatly overestimated.

You still don't seem to get it, do you. It would be illegal to sell a new boat without a CE mark. You need to see things through the eyes of a buyer rather than your eyes.

When the RCD came in there was an allowance for post construction certification specifically to cover one offs and custom build. Still possible but the RYA stopped offering the service a couple of years ago due to lack of demand.

Another way letting around the difficulty is to follow the Contessa 32 model and build a new boat out of an old one. Does not then need to comply, but is equally hard on the wallet.

 

[Tranona]

Sorry couldn't resist,
This came out of shed 1 at our "obscure boatyard" yesterday.
Complete renovation, shipped to us by truck from IOW a year ago.
New planking below wl, deadwood, engines, deck, wheelhouse and interior stripped and rebuilt.
[video]https://www.dropbox.com/s/d22ld7q1brrhbg2/MOV_0070.mp4?dl=0[/video]

Looks good. Don't think anybody doubts your boatwork skills. However if you read Classic Boat you will soon find you are not alone. Having an indulgent owner with deep pockets and a classic boat is a different world from building and selling new boats.

 

[doug748]

I wondered if the forum thinks there is a market for new 34 and 38 Victoria?
or is the market too congested already.

As a small yard, with spare time and room, I don't think you have to resort to the sort of voodoo market projections so loved on these pages. All you need do is to find a bloke, that wants a boat, that you can supply at a profit. When you have sold one, someone may want another, if not so what? It has put bread and butter on the table. Good for you.

Lots of small yards have done this in the past and are doing it now. They get by quite nicely producing very small numbers, if they have a barren year, the stock designs sit there on the internet costing nothing. All the red tape balony is just another cost factor that you are, not doubt, already aware of.

I would have thought your later ideas about a small motoring boat would be less risky, you might be able to secure the use of moulds against sales, or pick them up for very little. Then your only pre production exposure to risk is a bit of advertising.

I have to say that, commendable though they are, the thought of resurrecting the two Victoria yachts sounds like an adventure too far to me.

 

[GrahamM376]

I can see a point to the RCD, but I think its importance to the boat buying public is greatly overestimated.

Maybe in the UK but I think people are interested in how seaworthy their proposed purchase is, regardless of their skills

However, in other EC countries, the RCD category dictates where you can sail and heavy fines can be levied if caught out of your registered waters.

 

[Sailfree]

Interesting post Ken but is there an echo on here?

So Javelin is extolling the virtues of old boats and has just completed the repair/renovation of one that took £280,000 in repair bills. Javelin owns a boatyard that carries out the repairs! No bias there then is there!

I can buy two new AWB for this price (that he criticises so much) and not bother with repairs if one needed them!

EDIT with the Euro now creeping to 1.37 It may soon be 3 new AWBs for the price of the repair (£280,000) of one of the older boats Javelin that extolls the virtues!

 

[Tranona]

Maybe in the UK but I think people are interested in how seaworthy their proposed purchase is, regardless of their skills

However, in other EC countries, the RCD category dictates where you can sail and heavy fines can be levied if caught out of your registered waters.

Not quite, otherwise you would not be able to sail a pre 1998 boat which does not meet the RCD. Each country that has a category limitation has its own definition which does not necessarily equate with the RCD categories.

The point is that you cannot legally sell a new boat in the EU without a CE mark which means it has to comply with the RCD, either series production certification that production builders use or a post construction certificate.

 

[JumbleDuck]

You still don't seem to get it, do you. It would be illegal to sell a new boat without a CE mark.

Which can be Cat D for home built / home finished, can it not? Do you think someone who has bought a hull and spent a few years fitting it out is going to be terribly worried about the RCD category?

Edit: I realise that we may be talking at cross purposes. I was talking about home completed boats; perhaps you were thinking of professionally fsnished ones. I agree that Cat D isn't an option for them, but, as I posted before, the V/F34 and V/F38 were both RCD compliant so in this particular case it shouldn't be an issue.

You need to see things through the eyes of a buyer rather than your eyes.

I am looking at it from the point of view of the buyer, or trying to do so. I'd like to see some evidence that RCD category affects purchasing choices. How many people buying second hand yachts insist on evidence that no changes have been made which would affect category?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Maybe in the UK but I think people are interested in how seaworthy their proposed purchase is, regardless of their skills

Of course, bui I'd like to see some evidence that RCD category is used to determine seaworthiness. How man Category C 36-footers are on teh market, as a matter of interest?

However, in other EC countries, the RCD category dictates where you can sail and heavy fines can be levied if caught out of your registered waters.

That, of course, would be a significant issue.

 

[Tranona]

Which can be Cat D for home built / home finished, can it not? Do you think someone who has bought a hull and spent a few years fitting it out is going to be terribly worried about the RCD category?



I am looking at it from the point of view of the buyer, or trying to do so. I'd like to see some evidence that RCD category affects purchasing choices. How many people buying second hand yachts insist on evidence that no changes have been made which would affect category?

Home builds are exempt if not sold within 5 years of completion. If sold before that it is sellers responsibility to get a post construction certificate. Not surprising that home completion was killed stone dead in 1998.

Buyers of new boats have to take note of the RCD because it is not legal for a builder to sell a boat without complying. Would anybody buy a boat that only meets Cat D when all the competitors are A. Using Self certified Cat D may be a viable option for importing an old boat, which probably would not meet Cat A anyway.

 

[Tranona]

Of course, bui I'd like to see some evidence that RCD category is used to determine seaworthiness. How man Category C 36-footers are on teh market, as a matter of interest?



That, of course, would be a significant issue.[/QUOTE
Perhaps you should read the RCD before making such statements.

As to the second point see my earlier reply to Graham. RCD is not used in the way that he suggests. It is a commercial piece of legislation and the only people who can be penalized are sellers who sell products that don't comply.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Buyers of new boats have to take note of the RCD because it is not legal for a builder to sell a boat without complying.

Is it illegal to buy a non-compliant boat? If not, it's surely a matter for the seller, not the buyer.

Would anybody buy a boat that only meets Cat D when all the competitors are A.

I don't know. Plenty of people seem to buy old boats without any certificates at all. I certainly don't think it would deter a home completer, which is all I was trying to say.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Perhaps you should read the RCD before making such statements.

Why? To some extent seaworthiness determines RCD category, but I was asking how many buyers rely on RCD to determine seaworthiness. Since all boats of the same size, by and large, have the same categorisation it would seem a little difficult to inform a decision that way.

 

[Georgio]

thread drift

I apologise in advance for the thread drift...

I suspect that for those (like myself) who are experienced sailors and have been on the water for many years (I won't say how many) the RCD category is of little or no interest as casting an eye over any boat will indicate it's capability. However for those that are no so experienced or are new to the sport it is a key indicator.

The downside IMO is that boat builders will design boats such that they just about meet the requirements for a particular category rather than building an inherently seaworthy boat.

 

[Tranona]

Is it illegal to buy a non-compliant boat? If not, it's surely a matter for the seller, not the buyer.



I don't know. Plenty of people seem to buy old boats without any certificates at all. I certainly don't think it would deter a home completer, which is all I was trying to say.

Penalties for a seller who sells a non compliant boat include seizure of the boat so guess the situation will not arise. Pointless comparing with used boat sales and behaviour of buyers and sellers in that market as the legislation does not apply.

Home building was in decline for practical and economic reasons by 1998. The RCD was the final nail in the coffin. There is, however a vibrant homebuilders market in small boats were the RCD is less of an issue.

 

[Tranona]

Why? To some extent seaworthiness determines RCD category, but I was asking how many buyers rely on RCD to determine seaworthiness. Since all boats of the same size, by and large, have the same categorisation it would seem a little difficult to inform a decision that way.

As I suggested, read up on the RCD and you would not need me to answer your questions. Size is a major factor in determining category so it is inevitable that boats aimed at the same market will be in the same category. However at the margins you will find boats of similar size in either, or even the same design in either depending on equipment. In addition to the broad category builders also have make available desind data showing details such as stability to help buyers make their choice.

 

[Tranona]

Why? To some extent seaworthiness determines RCD category, but I was asking how many buyers rely on RCD to determine seaworthiness. Since all boats of the same size, by and large, have the same categorisation it would seem a little difficult to inform a decision that way.

As I suggested, read up on the RCD and you would not need me to answer your questions. Size is a major factor in determining category so it is inevitable that boats aimed at the same market will be in the same category. However at the margins you will find boats of similar size in either, or even the same design in either depending on equipment. In addition to the broad category builders also have make available desind data showing details such as stability to help buyers make their choice.

 

[GrahamM376]

As to the second point see my earlier reply to Graham. RCD is not used in the way that he suggests. It is a commercial piece of legislation and the only people who can be penalized are sellers who sell products that don't comply.

The RCD is used here in the way I suggested. When registering a post RCD boat, the placarded category determins the area for which registration is granted. If pre-RCD, then proof of suitability is required or determined by survey. All boats have to be surveyed by registration authorities and also have to meet certain equipment levels, again determined by the area being registered for.

Don't take if granted that because the UK are very lax, the same applies elsewhere. A Swedish friend paid his annual light dues last week, having persuaded them that his boat (in which he has done a circumnavigation) is coastal. He was warned that if caught more than 6 miles offshore he would be fined.

 

[oldvarnish]

As I suggested, read up on the RCD

That's a good idea. I tried a Google and found the RYA RCD documents download page. http://www.rcdweb.com

Very pleased to discover that it costs £550 to gain access. (have a look at the application form page)

 

[Minchsailor]

I apologise in advance for the thread drift...

I suspect that for those (like myself) who are experienced sailors and have been on the water for many years (I won't say how many) the RCD category is of little or no interest as casting an eye over any boat will indicate it's capability. However for those that are no so experienced or are new to the sport it is a key indicator.

The downside IMO is that boat builders will design boats such that they just about meet the requirements for a particular category rather than building an inherently seaworthy boat.

+1

i see some AWBs which are probably classified 'A' or 'B' and I would not have them in the same paddling pool as me. But then my present, traditionally designed, boat has (with a previous owners) been sailed twice round the world.

I was for quite a long time involved with introducing a product quality/approval scheme (in an industry a million miles away from sailing). What was a product line that stretched from the frankly terrible to a premium high quality, ended up with only kit that passed the minimum to get approval.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I suspect that for those (like myself) who are experienced sailors and have been on the water for many years (I won't say how many) the RCD category is of little or no interest as casting an eye over any boat will indicate it's capability. However for those that are no so experienced or are new to the sport it is a key indicator

It might be, but I wonder how much effect it actually has. To a rough approximation, all 26 footers at Cat B and all 36 footers are Cat A, so no discrimination possible there. At some length in between there is presumably a crossover - 32'? - and it would be really interesting to know for how many buyers the RCD category is the deciding factor rather than, say, the size of the heads, the layout of the galley or the shape of the stern. Maybe lots, maybe few, but it would be nice to know.

I doubt that buyers of an Oyster, a Hallberg Rassy, a Folkboat or a Draascombe Lugger give a moment's thought to the RCD, any more than buyers of a Morgan, a Porsche or a Bentley worry about its NCAP rating.