VAT status post Brexit.

[Joker]

It's nice to know that the Cruising Association has been more on the ball than the RYA.

The question is whether British boats, which have paid VAT in the EU (when Britain was a member), will retain their VAT status within the EU. The short answer is no.

The Cruising Association has been in correspondence with the EU. They have received a response from the EU Commission. To give a couple of quotes from the response from the EU:
"Where the recreational boat has been released for free circulation at import in the EU or has been manufactured in the EU, it has obtained the customs status of Union goods.
After the UK's withdrawal from the EU or the end of the transition period in case a Withdrawal Agreement with a transition period is concluded, in general, any goods in the customs territory of the UK will lose their Union status and will become UK goods."
And:
"Where the recreational boat has been released for free circulation at import in the EU or has been manufactured in the EU, it has obtained the customs status of Union goods.
After the UK's withdrawal from the EU or the end of the transition period in case a Withdrawal Agreement with a transition period is concluded, in general, any goods in the customs territory of the UK will lose their Union status and will become UK goods."

It would therefore appear, from the response of the EU Commission, that any UK boat in the UK at the time of Brexit, automatically loses its VAT status within Europe. This means that if you wish to keep your boat in the Baltic or the Mediterranean, it will have to leave the EU every 18 months or become liable for VAT.

This is something of a plug for the Cruising Association, but it is astonishing that no one else has picked this up.

 

[AndrewN]

This information has been on the RYA's website since the end of 2018

 

[Sandy]

Who are the Cruising Association?

 

[Joker]

I admire your ignorance.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Reading that it means that thousands of British boats that's on the ARC / wintering out of the EU as in Turkey/Tunisa , or on there three years dream cruise all going to lost there VAT statis , Mmmmm
Does it also man someone who buy a boat in the EU and bring it back to the UK will have to pay VAT again ? Mmmmm
Wait and see is the answer .

 

[dom]

Wait and see is the answer .

The 100% response; thereafter 1% is lost for each additional word! :encouragement:

 

[dunedin]

Wait and see is the answer .

To a degree. Except that there may be a decision needed as to whether better to be in EU or U.K. waters on B****** Day.
Get this wrong and could have future implications. So some proactive action may be beneficial in some circumstances.

 

[dom]

To a degree. Except that there may be a decision needed as to whether better to be in EU or U.K. waters on B****** Day.
Get this wrong and could have future implications. So some proactive action may be beneficial in some circumstances.

...implying that we wait and see until those circumstances become clear.

 

[lw395]

To a degree. Except that there may be a decision needed as to whether better to be in EU or U.K. waters on B****** Day.
Get this wrong and could have future implications. So some proactive action may be beneficial in some circumstances.

I think some people are attaching too much importance to where the boat physically is at 0001Hrs on B'Day.
If your boat is UK owned, UK based, UK registered etc, but just happens to be on a booze cruise to Cherbourg at that time, my guess is that it would still be a UK boat.

The grey areas come with boats which are owned in one country but routinely based in another or where the owner lives both in EU and UK.
There are issues which are unique to boats, and issues which apply to other chattels.
For instance my French colleague here has a car and a flat full of stuff in town.
I presume the car will still be French if it's over here at the key date it's registered in France and belongs to a French citizen who just happens to be working in England, but what about his mountain bike?
What if he had a UK reg'd motorbike?

 

[Mistroma]

I think some people are attaching too much importance to where the boat physically is at 0001Hrs on B'Day.
If your boat is UK owned, UK based, UK registered etc, but just happens to be on a booze cruise to Cherbourg at that time, my guess is that it would still be a UK boat.

The grey areas come with boats which are owned in one country but routinely based in another or where the owner lives both in EU and UK.
There are issues which are unique to boats, and issues which apply to other chattels.
For instance my French colleague here has a car and a flat full of stuff in town.
I presume the car will still be French if it's over here at the key date it's registered in France and belongs to a French citizen who just happens to be working in England, but what about his mountain bike?
What if he had a UK reg'd motorbike?

I know that there is a temporary importation procedure for non-EU craft. It allows private use for 18 months and can be extended to 24 months if the craft is out of use for up to 6 months in total. VAT exemption is granted to craft temporarily imported.

My worry wasn't specifically about being charged VAT, it was the 18 month limit. I could reset the clock by leaving the EU for a day and returning. However, the T2L approach seemed worthwhile as it might avoid future problems. I'm not certain that there are too many grey areas regarding people living outside EU and leaving their boat in the EU. It could become an issue in 19 months time if the UK leaves with no deal.

The location of your boat on B-day could be significant, all we can do is hedge bets and wait.

 

[lw395]

I know that there is a temporary importation procedure for non-EU craft. It allows private use for 18 months and can be extended to 24 months if the craft is out of use for up to 6 months in total. VAT exemption is granted to craft temporarily imported.

My worry wasn't specifically about being charged VAT, it was the 18 month limit. I could reset the clock by leaving the EU for a day and returning. However, the T2L approach seemed worthwhile as it might avoid future problems. I'm not certain that there are too many grey areas regarding people living outside EU and leaving their boat in the EU. It could become an issue in 19 months time if the UK leaves with no deal.

The location of your boat on B-day could be significant, all we can do is hedge bets and wait.

There is some lack of clarity about who can temporarily import a 'foreign' boat for up to 18 months. It isn't EU citizens!

 

[Graham376]

However, the T2L approach seemed worthwhile as it might avoid future problems. .

But will the T2L still be a valid document once we leave the community?

The T2L document is a customs document used in the European Union as a proof of the Inter-European community character of the export / import.

 

[Mistroma]

But will the T2L still be a valid document once we leave the community?

The T2L document is a customs document used in the European Union as a proof of the Inter-European community character of the export / import.

I'm happy to listen to an explanation why it would no longer be valid.

It is a declaration issued by a country in the EU that my boat originated within the EU, stamped retrospectively while UK are still part of the EU. I would use it to help prove that I bought my boat in the EU, did not export it to a third country and that it was not subsequently exported from UK to EU post Brexit.

My hope is that a T2L issued pre-Brexit plus marina, quay and yard bills covering the period 2012-2019, will prove that my boat was not imported post-Brexit. Nothing is guaranteed but it costs very little to extend the chain of evidence.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Has Mistroma said I too can't see any reason why it wouldn't be valid or come to that the original invoices showing VAT been paid .
To be honesty I think all this stress about VAT , insurances, Greek Tax , where the boat was the day before B day , 90/180 day , is all stress that's not needed , and the only people who are stressing over what happen next are a hand full here , everyone I met this year don't seen to be bothered about what will happen once we left , most are under the impression , me too , that one way or another it will all get sorted .

 

[Graham376]

I'm happy to listen to an explanation why it would no longer be valid.

It is a declaration issued by a country in the EU that my boat originated within the EU, stamped retrospectively while UK are still part of the EU. I would use it to help prove that I bought my boat in the EU, did not export it to a third country and that it was not subsequently exported from UK to EU post Brexit.

My hope is that a T2L issued pre-Brexit plus marina, quay and yard bills covering the period 2012-2019, will prove that my boat was not imported post-Brexit. Nothing is guaranteed but it costs very little to extend the chain of evidence.

Personally, I'm not bothered whether it will still be valid or not as I haven't bothered getting one so far. Just that it's an "inter community" document and we will (most likely) cease to be a part of that community so doubtful if they will be issued afterwards or be valid for boats not already in the EU on the day.

 

[duncan99210]

It’s really pretty simple, as the EU Commission response make clear. Once the UK has left the EU, a UK owned boat ceases to be in free circulation in the EU but becomes an imported boat. You then have two options: pay VAT to an EU state so you can import it or opt for the 18 month temporary importation. It’ll be the same for your car, motorbike or anything else of sufficient value for the local tax people to take an interest.
The T2L is a red herring, it was only ever really relevant for Croatia who failed to understand what free movement of goods was all about when they joined the EU.
The worrying thing for me is the 90/180 days length of stay, which will cripple my cruising plans if it comes to pass. Ah well, wait and see what emerges.

 

[sailaboutvic]

It’s really pretty simple, as the EU Commission response make clear. Once the UK has left the EU, a UK owned boat ceases to be in free circulation in the EU but becomes an imported boat. You then have two options: pay VAT to an EU state so you can import it or opt for the 18 month temporary importation. It’ll be the same for your car, motorbike or anything else of sufficient value for the local tax people to take an interest.
The T2L is a red herring, it was only ever really relevant for Croatia who failed to understand what free movement of goods was all about when they joined the EU.
The worrying thing for me is the 90/180 days length of stay, which will cripple my cruising plans if it comes to pass. Ah well, wait and see what emerges.

Duncan , if we have to apply to the 90/180 day rule how bad is it really going to be for us brits?
There X amount of brits who as soon as it get hot return home for the best part of the summer return for late summer then home again for the winter .
Then there the full timers , once like myself if I had to sail a week or so to get out of the EU it no big deal , ok we may have to pay for a few months in Turkey, Croatia or North Africa but Hey the way things are going you going to be paying in Greece any way .
If you happen to be a Greece lover , most brits are then as long as your in eastern Greece it's just a short pop over the Turkey , the people that's it's really going to Effect are the one with a love affair with the Ionian who spend all there time there , they will have a problem but even they could sail for a few days and be out of schengen. at the end of the day it's not going to stop us all doing what we love to do .

 

[Mistroma]

Duncan , if we have to apply to the 90/180 day rule how bad is it really going to be for us brits?
There X amount of brits who as soon as it get hot return home for the best part of the summer return for late summer then home again for the winter .
Then there the full timers , once like myself if I had to sail a week or so to get out of the EU it no big deal , ok we may have to pay for a few months in Turkey, Croatia or North Africa but Hey the way things are going you going to be paying in Greece any way .
If you happen to be a Greece lover , most brits are then as long as your in eastern Greece it's just a short pop over the Turkey , the people that's it's really going to Effect are the one with a love affair with the Ionian who spend all there time there , they will have a problem but even they could sail for a few days and be out of schengen. at the end of the day it's not going to stop us all doing what we love to do .

Vic, it's a much bigger deal for me as it is a rolling 180 day window and all visits are totalled. Off to visit a friend in Sweden and travel around for a couple of weeks before returning to the boat. We also have relatives in France and could visit them in other years. This time comes out of 90 days allowed in Europe if UK was a third country without any deal.

Time in Sweden or France won't count this year as it is pre-Brexit. Next year I could be left with 60 days to go sailing in summer. I can't reset the clock as it is a total within a rolling 180 day window. I'd need to visit Turkey or return to UK for at least a couple of months. It has a big effect as little point in flying back to Greece to sail in October.

 

[Mistroma]

It’s really pretty simple, as the EU Commission response make clear. Once the UK has left the EU, a UK owned boat ceases to be in free circulation in the EU but becomes an imported boat. You then have two options: pay VAT to an EU state so you can import it or opt for the 18 month temporary importation. It’ll be the same for your car, motorbike or anything else of sufficient value for the local tax people to take an interest.
The T2L is a red herring, it was only ever really relevant for Croatia who failed to understand what free movement of goods was all about when they joined the EU.
The worrying thing for me is the 90/180 days length of stay, which will cripple my cruising plans if it comes to pass. Ah well, wait and see what emerges.

If a yard I used in the past was taken over and I heard that they would charge people for any old debts. I might worry that their old records might not confirm that I had paid.

I would consider it worthwhile to dig out any old proof of payment and keep hold of it. Any receipts issued by the previous company would not suddenly become invalid because the company had changed hands. They would be useful evidence in conjunction with my bank records.

Not a brilliant analogy, but I look on T2L in a similar light. I don't see a problem using it after we leave to prove a particular status when UK was in EU and followed their rules.

The 90 day thing is a bigger worry and preparation is more difficult, though I am still trying to get an Irish passport. A T2L is an obvious thing to obtain as it involves negligible effort and cost. It could be useful in Croatia or Portugal, less likely in Greece. I see no downside in obtaining a T2L.

 

[dom]

Vic, it's a much bigger deal for me as it is a rolling 180 day window and all visits are totalled. Off to visit a friend in Sweden and travel around for a couple of weeks before returning to the boat. We also have relatives in France and could visit them in other years. This time comes out of 90 days allowed in Europe if UK was a third country without any deal.

Time in Sweden or France won't count this year as it is pre-Brexit. Next year I could be left with 60 days to go sailing in summer. I can't reset the clock as it is a total within a rolling 180 day window. I'd need to visit Turkey or return to UK for at least a couple of months. It has a big effect as little point in flying back to Greece to sail in October.

The "no deal" terminology is a negotiating soundbite at best, prol food at worst.

In the event there is no deal by Brexit Day, and no extension, then negotiations will cease. This will be immediately met by a raft of emergency measures, followed by more negotiations. Nobody in Whitehall or the European Commission would seriously deny that.

And out of the fog will come a deal, or a series of mini-deals. It is utterly pointless to speculate ex ante what these may be.