Valid arguments against Beneteau?

As more than a few people have said, you might be asking the wrong question. The question you need to ask yourself is what do you want to use the boat for? If you want to go and study polar bears etc. , buy an appropriate boat. If you're like most of us and use your boats at weekends, summer hols etc, , and enjoy a bit of entertaining then a Beneteau will probably do the trick. Heavy weather ? Stay in port. Windward ability? They don't all slam. Sail one and see for yourself. Don't discount Jeanneaus either.

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To play Devil\'s Advocate

Would they slam in the same sea if a) they were going at the slower upwind(ish) speed of your old boat? and b) if they were sailed at the same angle to the wind as your old boat in the same seastate?

I'm not sure you can make a valid comparison here between your old Victory 40 which in rough weather might go upwind (no help from the engine assumed) at say 6kts and 50 degs off the wind and a modern deep keeled 47 footer which might be doing 7.5kts at 40 degs to the wind. If you took the latter and slowed her down to 6kts and sailed her off at 50 degs, would she then slam? That is IMHO the only valid comparison.

Glad to have you back talking boats again by the way!/forums/images/icons/smile.gif

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>
 
We have a Moody 40. Close friends have a Beneteau 461. Both boats weigh the same at 9500kg.

I have spent a lot of time on their 461. It's a fine boat, perhaps very slightly more tender than ours. The only build issue I would make is that the electrics are not quite as well designed as the Moody, and the sailing hardware is not quite as tough.

Would I change? No, but that is personal preference on layouts, saloon and storage.

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Re: Careful Nicho

Probably worth pointing out that on the Cherbourg trip, while you were sleeping, your boat was being helmed by a motorboater who had never been on a yacht in those conditions before - into a notherly on the way back to Solent..... and it probably only slammed two or three times at most!

Though the motorboater at the helm did get a little damp on a few occasions when he took waves over this head, which gives some idea of conditions.

<hr width=100% size=1>Me transmitte sursum, caledoni
 
Re: Before you buy

Ring around a few charter companies try to pick their brains about relative brand issues. A charter boat might easily do 5 years work in one year when compared to private use and so suffers accelerated wear and tear. Even charter one near to the model your considering and see if you can live with it.

Many volume builders produce excellent designs built to a reasonable standard. They retain agents to sell the boats. Some offer good service and some don't. If the dealer fails to offer good aftercare service very often the brand is tainted by his failings. The only way to pick a route through all of this is by asking around. Doorstep/gangplank owners, ask owners groups and pick up info where you can.

I know of one guy who hammered a hugh hole in the list price of a Ben & squeezed plenty of extras out of the dealer just to build in his own warranty fund because he never wanted to take it back to them for repair. If something broke he got it fixed by someone he new and trusted. Clearly you've still got the warranty if something major breaks but loosing your boat for weeks on end to get little bits fixed is often the consequence of sticking to the dealer.

I've sailed a whole load of Ben's. One of my favorite boats is the First 435 which is a Ben. They're no better or worse than any of the other AWB's.

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Re And another thing...

"your boat was being helmed by a motorboater who had never been on a yacht in those conditions before "

...Bavs are very forgiving no matter how brutish the helmsman!

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Re: To play Devil\'s Advocate

Robin - the dear old Victory once the wind was up would do 45 apparent (NOT GOOD!) but could knock up 7.5 knots in a sea and 8 knots in flat water. 25 degrees of heal was passed time to reduce sail. and could lead to falling off biger waves on ones ear. However motor sailing we could manage 7 knots into an F8 and she would never slam - however the motion would become violent!

I think Moose needs to be absolutely sure what he wants out of his boat. Long pounding beats can beat the hell out of any boat. I just don't want to do that type of sailing anymore, so provided you have the choice of doing it or not, you have a choice of the type of boat. IMHO those doing long distant stuff don't have that choice.

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Re: To play Devil\'s Advocate

You could win a lot of silverware with figures like that and the probable handicap rating!

We have an excellent upwind performer which is based on an Admiral's Cup one-tonner, and it is a source of great pleasure to leave pretty well most others behind and to leeward - provided that pleasure does not have to continue for more than a few hours and it is enjoyed in winds of say F4 or less! We can go upwind under sail alone in F8 if stupid enough to want to but hell there are nice destinations in other directions too. I'm not sure either that doing long distance stuff does mean that for it you have no choice but to go for the heavy weather take it all kind Southern Ocean type of boat, most long distance cruisers will spend by far the most part of their time in port where space and comfort , ventilation and easy upright living are the requirements.

One of our club members boats is a Benny of about 43ft I think with a lady owner/skipper. She did the ARC maybe 4 years ago now and is already through Panama and somewhere in the Pacific on route RTW.



<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>
 
Re: Taxi!!!

But Kev, those Merc taxi's are 20+ years old, and are still going strong.

(You can see where my prejudices lie hehe)

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Blimey. Either your moody was wired by a different person to mine, or the 461 has really, REALLY bad wiring! My moody S31's wiring looks like an explosion in a spagetti factory!

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In brief I am saying that I have no doubts about the ability of Beneteaux to handle heavy weather, but that in doing so they put the crew under more stress than a more traditional design would do.

That stress tends to impair the efficiency of the crew (especially decision making capabilities) as well as making it a less pleasant experience.

Any boat is a compromise, and many sailors will chose to avoid getting into the conditions where this becomes a serious issue.

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My personal preferance is for a long keel and plenty of weight, but that is all it is 'my preferance'. A chap I know is a lifeboat cox with years of heavy weather experience, He's in the process of selling up to buy a new boat to live aboard, His choice??? A big Bennie. Nuff said I think. Mike.

<hr width=100% size=1>My Mum say's I'm not a fat b@st@rd, just heavy boned.
 
We are not that far apart here, my beef is with sweeping generalisations!

I understand what you are saying and agree that some traditional design boats handle heavy weather well. What I don't think you can say however is that ALL of them DO, any more than you can say that ALL modern designs DON'T.

As far as stress on the crew is concerned, again some traditional designs are easier on the crew than some modern designs, but the reverse is also true, there are some traditional designs out there which a) cannot make any ground to windward in anything like a gale, very stressful off a lee shore b) may not slam but go straight through the waves taking solid green water regularly on board, I sailed on a boat once that was nicknamed El Sub(marine) for that reason.

I believe the Hiscocks wrote that they stopped trying to go upwind once the wind reached F6, because in the open ocean they could afford to wait for a shift or drop. That seems very sensible to me too, but maybe because (some) modern designs can still make ground to windward in even F8 plus there is a tendency to plug on regardless whereas in the past they might heave to or whatever? Also now modern engines are bigger and more reliable so you can bash & crash upwind even more in bad weather by motor sailing, going more into the sea as well as faster which is a sure recipe for some real bone jarring, teeth rattling slamming!

All of which may be no help to Moose who may be wondering if he should change his car for a tank and his Mobo for a Colin Archer!



<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>
 
Not really surprising. Liveaboards spend a much greater proportion of their time "living" on the boat, and a smaller proportion of their time on the boat sailing compared to typical weekend/cruising use.

There is no doubt that the greater interior volume of AWBs have a great attraction for liveaboards - you get a lot more cu ft for your pound from an AWB compared to a more trad design

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But we aren't really talking about generalisations - we are talking about Beneteaux. And in particular I am comparing my experience in a First 375 to that in my own boat (which although an older design is far from a traditional boat).

As for engines - I think they are vastly overrated /forums/images/icons/smile.gif.

In almost any conditions (above F4) my boat will make ground better to windward under sails than engine, and I can't imaging trying to motor the First 375 into the sort of sea-state associated with F8!

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Surely this is a design issue more than one of construction methods. Boats such as the Frers designed First 42, 435, 453, and the Peterson designed Sun Fasts seem to be capable of fast passages across Oceans where all kinds of weather could be encountered. A quick check back at the ARC 03 results shows a First 42 coming 10th overall and from memory there was some quite bad weather after the start of that leg. As they are an older design they are more wine glassed than flat at the forfoot, but the lack of any kind of skeg is a bit of a worry.

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Time to come clean?

So what is your boat?

I've not sailed a First 375 but did sail the earlier First 38, the 375 is very easy on the eye but I believe is quite a bit smaller than the 38.

Up until I sailed the First 38 I was a confirmed 'Brit and heavy is best never buy a lightweight Frenchie' kind of sailor, but the sailing club where I worked chartered one and I was dragged screaming in to skipper it. I went on board determined to find fault and came away a fan (of the 38).

The engine use comment is because so many people these days do it, motorsail at say 25degs to the true wind and then wonder why it slams and bangs! We have 44hp and a 3 bladed Brunton self pitching prop, yet we can still go upwind better under sail alone. Last summer we passed a lovely wooden ketch/yawl, similar size to us, we were headed NE along the N Brittany coast into a NE F5/6 and had wind against tide too, he was motorsailing and we were under sail alone, going a lot faster and yet we had the sprayhood down and no wet gear on, by contrast they were getting VERY wet indeed. We waved but didn't get a wave back! If you read Nicho's report about the delivery that ended up in Casablanca you will find motorsailing upwind was the chosen tactic there too.

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>
 
To skeg or not to skeg that is the question! We have a compromise and have half of one, but there were a lot of problems with skegs on some Moodys that I think kept the lawyers busy for a while, I think one boat sank off Australia and many others had bad cracks? I also seem to remember the Sadler 34 belonging to Andrew Bray of Yachting World having to return from an ARC start I think with a leak from a cracked skeg(?), certainly they did report on doing some structural reinforcement of it. good job these were not AWBs or they would really have got bad press on the forum! Just joking guys /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>
 
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