Used mobo market - where are the boats going?

[backwaters]

Ok, so we have just listed our first boat (Regal 2665) for sale as we are looking to move up. So we really can't move on anything until it sells.

We have however been looking at used boats for sale (£60-£80K) and almost everything we have identified in the last three weeks is now 'under offer' or 'sold' on the broker's website! Is the used market really that hot? We are a bit worried that once our boat sells we aren't going to be able to find anything to move up to!

Who is buying and why? Are these boats being exported?

-Jason

 

[[2068]]

When the pound collapses, everyone else in Europe buys up all our stuff.

When I was looking around for my boat, they fell into one of three categories:
- Stupidly overpriced (divorce?)
- Unusual / undesirable / very old / something wrong with them and been on the market for ages
- Mainstream stuff, sensible price, nothing major wrong ... about to be sold if you don't pounce

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Because the new boat market fell off a cliff all over Europe after the 2008 financial crisis, there are far fewer good late model used boats around now on the used market than there used to be. Couple that with the fact that the UK and European economies have recovered generally since 2008 and that has resulted in rising demand for used examples of popular models. I suspect also that the recent fall in Sterling is encouraging European buyers to buy boats from the UK used market in particular, just as Scandinavian buyers were doing in the immediate post 2008 period when Sterling had plunged

 

[sprocker]

I suspect also that the recent fall in Sterling is encouraging European buyers to buy boats from the UK used market in particular, just as Scandinavian buyers were doing in the immediate post 2008 period when Sterling had plunged

That seems to be the case with our Sessa which is for sale. Three enquiries from the Netherlands in the first fortnight.

 

[backwaters]

When the pound collapses, everyone else in Europe buys up all our stuff.

When I was looking around for my boat, they fell into one of three categories:
- Stupidly overpriced (divorce?)
- Unusual / undesirable / very old / something wrong with them and been on the market for ages
- Mainstream stuff, sensible price, nothing major wrong ... about to be sold if you don't pounce

That's what we are finding. Our (limited) budget means we are looking at older boats (eg: Princess 360, Princess 35, Fairline Turbo 36) or something early 2000's like a Prestige 32 or Antares. Even the older 'fixer-uppers' are going. There was a pretty rough Princess 35 at our marina that has been for sale for ages. We briefly considered buying it and gutting the interior. It's sold!

 

[backwaters]

That seems to be the case with our Sessa which is for sale. Three enquiries from the Netherlands in the first fortnight.

I think the Dutch must be swarming over our boats. There is a Prestige 32 in Holland for sale that is priced about 1.6 times the market rate here in the UK, and that's in Pounds with the exchange rate! They must see the prices here as a bargain!?

 

[asteven221]

The following is just a general observation so please don't over analyse it. I am just saying, ok? Maybe the basis for a discussion perhaps?

After many years on this forum, as a general observation I find it interesting that whenever the subject of used boat prices comes up the theme is always seems to drift towards how cheap I can get a boat for. The thrust is always about how much money can we get the seller to drop their price by. All well and good as none of us want to pay in excess, but there comes a point where owners just say eff it, I will just keep the boat, which I have recently done myself. Maybe that's why there are not so many decent boats of a certain make/model/type on the market. It seems for many (perhaps some on here) that the boat is almost an afterthought. It's all about - if I can get enough off the asking price I will buy it. Price is only one part of buying a boat and as we all know there are dozens of variables even in the same boat models. Also, if you target a certain type of boat (which if you are serious I would suggest you would) then you can bet there won't be many to choose from, nor will they be at the location where you want go and look at it. Sods law. It then follows that if you have targeted a boat type then you won't have many to choose from, so why then should you think the seller is likely to give the boat away at any price? Some seem to think the seller should/will. Maybe it's because they can't really afford it anyway, so they need to have a go and see if we can get it on the cheap. Clearly there are many reasons and motivations we have about buying and selling boats, but really, is getting a boat at the cheapest price the most important thing? No two boats are the same, so surely if you see one you really like and have the funds available, why would you just walk away if you can't get it for stupidly low price? I suspect many don't have the funds available if I am being honest and always aim for a boat they can't actually buy in the hope that they can somehow get the seller to sell at any price. Some will sell of course, but many won't. Some who do have the means to buy a given boat can get so obsessed about shaving every last pound off the price, someone else comes in and they lose the boat. I am not sure that (despite what many appear to suggest on this forum), the market is entirely weighted towards the buyer with sellers desperate to give their boats away on the cheap. In general I think most people are aware of their boat's value, so unless there are hidden agendas meaning they really do need to sell at any price, then many will keep their boat and reject daft offers. The consequence perhaps is a lack of certain types of boats on the market. I know it's complicated so I am just offering one viewpoint. I am sure there will be many others!!

I had our boat up for sale which is a 44ft flybridge and is a very decent example, priced at the low end of similar models on the market as I was quite aware that some were over priced. I couldn't believe the amount of people who called me with their opening line being "what is the least you will take for the boat"? People actually made offers on the boat without seeing it - and I mean they were pretty serious, not just the usual heat seekers and time wasters. Now I would like to think am not daft, although I might well be, so I would expect that if I said yeah ok you can have it for what you would like to pay, they then would back off and want come up to see the boat and then have another go at chipping the price again. They would see their initial accepted offer as their opening price for the negotiations. The story for our boat, was that four parties did see the boat and started negotiations with me and although we got close, at the end of the day I withdrew and took the boat off the market. Why? I just thought that there comes a point where the boat is worth more to me in comparison to the amount of money I would need to spend to get something that to me is clearly better/newer. As I said above, for me it was a case of eff it, might as well keep it. I concluded that it's a perfectly decent boat anyway, so why bother spending many thousands on what is for all intents and purpose the same thing. These thousands of pounds can buy me many holidays, a holiday home, a motor home - many things and I still have a damn decent boat. I wonder how many other people come to the same conclusion. One last thing. One of the offers I nearly accepted was from a dealer and when I asked why they wanted to buy it, they answered by saying that it's a struggle getting decent boats for them to sell on. Make of that what you want.

 

[BruceK]

I can agree to that in large part. I bought a cheap "project" boat from a dealer as a toe in the water and have thought long and hard about upgrading now. Problem is the next boat I'd fancy is 2 to 3 x the price of what I have now and I often wonder if really it's worth it over and above what I already have. The answer even with buckets of Man Maths is no. Mine is not perfect by any means and not even near but the truth is a bigger better boat would only be justified with a "pride of ownership" bringing little else to the table. As such I will probably just continue to refit mine as we go along.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

asteven221, good post but as my post above tries to explain there is a dearth of good used boats out there at present so perhaps your comments are not so applicable in the present market. As a habitual used boat seller/buyer (14 boats and counting) I have some sympathy with your comments but I have learnt over the years not to get upset by lowball offers. In fact a lowball offer is a positive thing and way better than no offer at all. It means somebody is interested in your boat and if that person is interested there will be other interested buyers too. Lowball offers can also sometimes be turned into acceptable offers with a bit of negotiation so its always best to treat every offer seriously. And of course most buyers start with a low offer. The only way a buyer is going to find the price at which the seller is willing to sell is to start with a low offer and move up in increments because it is impossible to go the other way. In the end it is the seller who controls the process because it is the seller who decides the eventual selling price so there is really no need for sellers to be upset by lowball offers

 

[backwaters]

asteven221, good post but as my post above tries to explain there is a dearth of good used boats out there at present so perhaps your comments are not so applicable in the present market. As a habitual used boat seller/buyer (14 boats and counting) I have some sympathy with your comments but I have learnt over the years not to get upset by lowball offers. In fact a lowball offer is a positive thing and way better than no offer at all. It means somebody is interested in your boat and if that person is interested there will be other interested buyers too. Lowball offers can also sometimes be turned into acceptable offers with a bit of negotiation so its always best to treat every offer seriously. And of course most buyers start with a low offer. The only way a buyer is going to find the price at which the seller is willing to sell is to start with a low offer and move up in increments because it is impossible to go the other way. In the end it is the seller who controls the process because it is the seller who decides the eventual selling price so there is really no need for sellers to be upset by lowball offers

Agree. Also I might add that I would think in the present market most serious buyers would have heavy competition, so would likely be presenting 'sensible' offers. Just a guess.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I can agree to that in large part. I bought a cheap "project" boat from a dealer as a toe in the water and have thought long and hard about upgrading now. Problem is the next boat I'd fancy is 2 to 3 x the price of what I have now and I often wonder if really it's worth it over and above what I already have. The answer even with buckets of Man Maths is no. Mine is not perfect by any means and not even near but the truth is a bigger better boat would only be justified with a "pride of ownership" bringing little else to the table. As such I will probably just continue to refit mine as we go along.

Agreed. The SWMBO and I go to boat shows and see new boats 3x the value of our existing boats. Yes they're new and shiny but often lack the features we have on our existing boat so we think whats the point. Even my PHD in Man Maths wont make me buy a boat which isnt better than the one I've got. Maybe I'm just getting old

 

[jfm]

The following is just a general observation so please don't over analyse it. I am just saying, ok? Maybe the basis for a discussion perhaps?

After many years on this forum, as a general observation I find it interesting that whenever the subject of used boat prices comes up the theme is always seems to drift towards how cheap I can get a boat for. The thrust is always about how much money can we get the seller to drop their price by. All well and good as none of us want to pay in excess, but there comes a point where owners just say eff it, I will just keep the boat, which I have recently done myself. Maybe that's why there are not so many decent boats of a certain make/model/type on the market. It seems for many (perhaps some on here) that the boat is almost an afterthought. It's all about - if I can get enough off the asking price I will buy it. Price is only one part of buying a boat and as we all know there are dozens of variables even in the same boat models. Also, if you target a certain type of boat (which if you are serious I would suggest you would) then you can bet there won't be many to choose from, nor will they be at the location where you want go and look at it. Sods law. It then follows that if you have targeted a boat type then you won't have many to choose from, so why then should you think the seller is likely to give the boat away at any price? Some seem to think the seller should/will. Maybe it's because they can't really afford it anyway, so they need to have a go and see if we can get it on the cheap. Clearly there are many reasons and motivations we have about buying and selling boats, but really, is getting a boat at the cheapest price the most important thing? No two boats are the same, so surely if you see one you really like and have the funds available, why would you just walk away if you can't get it for stupidly low price? I suspect many don't have the funds available if I am being honest and always aim for a boat they can't actually buy in the hope that they can somehow get the seller to sell at any price. Some will sell of course, but many won't. Some who do have the means to buy a given boat can get so obsessed about shaving every last pound off the price, someone else comes in and they lose the boat. I am not sure that (despite what many appear to suggest on this forum), the market is entirely weighted towards the buyer with sellers desperate to give their boats away on the cheap. In general I think most people are aware of their boat's value, so unless there are hidden agendas meaning they really do need to sell at any price, then many will keep their boat and reject daft offers. The consequence perhaps is a lack of certain types of boats on the market. I know it's complicated so I am just offering one viewpoint. I am sure there will be many others!!

I had our boat up for sale which is a 44ft flybridge and is a very decent example, priced at the low end of similar models on the market as I was quite aware that some were over priced. I couldn't believe the amount of people who called me with their opening line being "what is the least you will take for the boat"? People actually made offers on the boat without seeing it - and I mean they were pretty serious, not just the usual heat seekers and time wasters. Now I would like to think am not daft, although I might well be, so I would expect that if I said yeah ok you can have it for what you would like to pay, they then would back off and want come up to see the boat and then have another go at chipping the price again. They would see their initial accepted offer as their opening price for the negotiations. The story for our boat, was that four parties did see the boat and started negotiations with me and although we got close, at the end of the day I withdrew and took the boat off the market. Why? I just thought that there comes a point where the boat is worth more to me in comparison to the amount of money I would need to spend to get something that to me is clearly better/newer. As I said above, for me it was a case of eff it, might as well keep it. I concluded that it's a perfectly decent boat anyway, so why bother spending many thousands on what is for all intents and purpose the same thing. These thousands of pounds can buy me many holidays, a holiday home, a motor home - many things and I still have a damn decent boat. I wonder how many other people come to the same conclusion. One last thing. One of the offers I nearly accepted was from a dealer and when I asked why they wanted to buy it, they answered by saying that it's a struggle getting decent boats for them to sell on. Make of that what you want.

Yup, I get your drift and generally agree. There is loads of focus on price here. Imho, as a seller, the way to sell your boat is make it better than the others, not cheaper. Other sellers can compete with you on price, in the proverbial race to the bottom, but they cant compete with you if the boat has killer features. I've sold both my last 2 boats (which were 2 year sold at the time) at highly premium prices to the first person to see them and didn't drop price because others were circling
Simple example - on my last Sq78 I specced a 3rd fuel tank and it cost £7000. Peanuts. When you narrow the pool of buyers down to those who are tired of the crummy 250nm range you get with a production 23m boat, you have people who really want the boat and will pay.

 

[Hurricane]

Here is another theory.

Hurricane Irma’s impact on the yacht market.

Have a look at this video
OK - the video is 18 mins long but the scary statistics are in the first couple of mins.
If you find it interesting, I suggest that you watch the whole clip.



So, it seems from this video that there is now a real shortage of cats.
But the interesting thing is that they are looking to places like Europe's second hand market to "fill in their gaps".
I don't think this is a salesman's scam - I think the charter companies have a real problem out there.

So, if there is a shortage of cats, maybe that will have a "knock down" effect on the rest of the boating world.

 

[Portofino]

I like post # 7 from asteven221 ,
We used a broker to sell who new the mkt in the sense then 2014 what my type of boat a 12m well specced sports cruiser was going for .
Tbo , having verbally and contractually written down a price ,he did it all ,I was not really involved .So never saw or felt some of the stuff you did , in the 1 st part of the post .The final paid price was better than I thought , After he told me what he could do with it , price wise , how much then a serious buyer wants off -- basically his survey / lift fee. So we added it on the asking price ,
Low and behold the survey gave the buyer a bit of chip ammo - as expected , --- back to price I was happy with .
3 viewings -- sold - empty berth 3 weeks later ,never got a chance to say good bye so to speak .

Broker new his onions , had it deep valeted ,engine room cleaned ,minted up so to speak. Nice vid ,n pics etc ,worked on weekends sent a car to pick up a client who bought it from the airport , took them out for a joy ride -- in the bay of Cannes
His idea -- I just said "what - ever " ---- none of all this offer , deposit , subject to sea trail malarkey .

With regards to hanging on - resisting moving up -- the second part of the post I can identify with that too .

We kept the 12 M sports boat for looking back an unbelievable 9 years , , it did everything we asked as a holiday in the Med boat , the kids grew up with it .No real pressure to move up .
We are constrained by berth size in the Med , not unsurmountable but an added break to " boat show fever "

Gots lots of invites ( still do ) from Sunseeker. Rides in 14 M ,18 M etc , - I was working @ the time during this period .
Three S,s the Sun , Sea , Sand is the same for all --- we all share those s the same they don,t change from a 12 to 18 M

About 3 years in while in Antibes I stumbled across an original property in the old town on the market .No services ,they used to get water Dailey from a town trough -

I bought it later that afternoon paid the deposit completed 4 weeks later .Then spent what would have been a tidy sum to upgrade the boat on restoring / modernising / doing it up - we employed a local architect to oversee the project .Still have it .

He,s now a great drinking buddy , when I have a lads trip and in town .

You don,t need a great imagination to work out which has been the best investment , bigger boat or local - resto property .Then the Lad went to uni -- again I spent upsizing £ on a property in WC1 , that was 4 years ago ,saved a fortune on accommodation costs ,put it in his name for inheritance Tax issues .

Mean while the three S,s have not changed .

As the kids have grown up ironically we did upsize to a 14.5 M , but more from a getting away from things after 9 years that we did not want in a boat to things we had learn,t are more important for the enjoyment .
But that was really an accident ,
Sat on my 12 M one evening the berth broker walked by ( his boat further up the pontoon ) - got chatting , said he had a client for my berth and would i part ex it for a bigger berth doing it this way swapping save some sort of transfer tax ? --- and we ( the marina ) are about to get a concession extension , ending up the longest lease in the Cote d Azur -- imagine how that might effect prices ?

1 week later our 12 M boat was in a new to me 15 M berth .
This made the decision selling the 12 M easier and buying another easier in the sense the new berth helps reducing the field of prospective newer boats .I then retired early @ 53 -- now I have all the time in the world .
Having tipped a bit into property , no regrets that kinda depleted my man maths change fund ,
How ever that target boat what I have now was easily in budget , the point you made , I turned up with €€ to spare to spend on it -- like new aircon etc -- they only made 19 or so - I have Hull 12 and this year turned down two private e- mail requests to sell it .---- as you said there's a shortage of good stock and Mike F s point a decade ago the industry was on its arse .

Now folks who want to move up or get in ,particularly into a rare bread so to speak it's tough finding a boat .
Back then One was in Naples t,other in Athens -- of the 2 I tracked down for sale in 2014
There's a thread on the buying / del of it .

At this mo in time we don,t want a bigger boat or any other boat .
Ironically the way life has played out we spend more time just the two of us on the bigger boat now than on the smaller boat when there was 4 --- but no regrets as said I got side tracked with property .

Sun Sea and Sand have not changed

 

[Seastoke]

so we are now ready to put our boat back on the market after 5 yrs ownership as we want to upgrade to a 40 ft fly , is fleabay the best place to sell 40 to 50k boat

 

[Baddox]

Mine went to Sweden when I sold it earlier this year.

 

[volvopaul]

3 of my clients boats sold this month all gone abroad , watching the marinas emptying again ,

 

[Greg2]

We just sold and have been looking at various options. Market is odd this time round.....some boats selling quickly as already said but others not so quick with no obvious consistent reason.

One or two brokers are doing the estate agent thing and trying to push prices up - may work, may not. Effect on us is that we are less likely to buy - keen boaters for years but not going to get caught up in buying a boat because of concerns about future availability and definitely not going to pay a higher price.

Strangely, despite being passionate boaters for years and having sold with the intention of buying again we are finding not having such a significant financial commitment quite pleasant and are not too fussed whether we get another boat in the short to medium term. That may change of course but in the meantime sailing holidays in the Med are an appealing alternative.

 

[Nigelpickin]

Here is another theory.

Hurricane Irma’s impact on the yacht market.

Have a look at this video
OK - the video is 18 mins long but the scary statistics are in the first couple of mins.
If you find it interesting, I suggest that you watch the whole clip.



So, it seems from this video that there is now a real shortage of cats.
But the interesting thing is that they are looking to places like Europe's second hand market to "fill in their gaps".
I don't think this is a salesman's scam - I think the charter companies have a real problem out there.

So, if there is a shortage of cats, maybe that will have a "knock down" effect on the rest of the boating world.

We were at the Lagoon factory yesterday to meet our new boat; they are sold out for the next 18 months now in their 40’ to 52’ range. Currently shipping one boat per day, every day.

Our dealer sold 5 cats at SIBS with customers happy with the > year long wait. The Lagoon 52 at Barcelona is sold but a less scrupulous dealer could, from what I hear, go into a sealed bidding war given the interest.

That’s before the impact of Irma - which in all honesty is not through the wash yet. The charter company’s orders are not in and for some firms it’s an opportunity to capitalise some assets and take stock, from what I understand. There are however, quite a few independent owners already shopping for replacements with their, (impending), pay outs.

The shortage is not going away anytime soon I reckon.

It sounds like the market for brokerage and new, rag top or mobo is in renaissance - let’s see how long it lasts....but I’m not tempted to put mine back into dealer stock at any price!

 

[Nauti Fox]

We've just made an offer on a boat after the owner of the previous boat we sea trialed ( twice and had the bottom of the boat cleaned at our expense) had several faults, the broker eventually got hold of him and was told he would contact him the next day.......nothing from the owner, so we' ve now given up waiting and had to wipe our nose of a grand.....
It's not always the buyers that are a problem...