Used boat values

[Malo37]

The value of used boats seems to be the 'elephant in the room', ignored by yachting magazines probably worried about upsetting their main advertisers, ignored by brokers who have their own agenda - leaving the average punter to depend on his wits. Add to that the fact that many boats are for sale in foreign currencies, the purchaser may also have to indulge in currency speculation. Having studied the market for the past six months it is clear that many advertised prices for used boats are nothing short of ludicrous, this applies to both private and broker advertised boats with some apparently expecting to sell their boats at a large profit after five years use.
An employee of one large well known broker told me last month that boats are typically on average, selling for between 10 - 15% under the asking price.
How can brokers possibly justify the fees charged to sell a boat being sometimes an order of magnitude more that the estate agent fee to sell a house of similar value? Whatever their convoluted justifications, this is nonsense only encouraged by our lethargy as boat buyers.
Two things I keep hearing when people are trying to justify silly prices are: 'includes x thousand pounds worth of extras' - (how much is five year old and therefore obsolete electronic equipment worth, or a ten year old liferaft etc?) and ' a new one would cost xxx thousand more' - ( again rubbish, I'm not buying a new one).
So - would it be a fairly straightforward exercise for some enterprising publishing house to to research and publish a used boat price guide? I think it could be moneyspinner.
Feel better now - back to the Sunday Times.

 

[Robin]

So may we take it you had some silly low offers refused then?

Boats are worth exactly what a buyer is prepared to pay, note that is 'a' buyer, because only one is needed.

We sold our much loved boat in December for very close to what we paid for it 8 years earlier and there was another willing buyer waiting in the wings too. That is actually the first boat that we sold over 35 years or more for less than we paid, so we can probably blame the recession for that.

 

[Rivers & creeks]

Relax, it's a troll - shock horror, some boats are selling for 10% below asking price!!!!! Isn't that damn near asking price??? With all those europeans coming over 'ere and spening their fancy euros, I hear there's a shortage of good used boats. O damn it, why am I bothering it was an obvious troll.

 

[Malo37]

Not made any offers silly or otherwise. Also agree that it is often possible to sell a well maintained boat for something like the original purchase price - actually at a depreciation taking the discounted value of money into consideration. Also a statement of the obvious - anything is worth what it can be sold for, not just boats. But why allow a broker to insert himself into a deal at no added value to either party, and pay him 12%? Why waste everybody's time trying to sell a boat that cost £250k four years ago for £290k now (real case).
My point really was that some kind of used boat price guide would be very helpful to private buyers and sellers. The concept would be derided by those with a 10% vested interest.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Your cri de coeur seems baseless if you're talking about good boats. Damn few of them about and many of those that have gone went for top dollar.

Yes, there is overpriced tat around, but that's not what you're after.

 

[Ubergeekian]

So - would it be a fairly straightforward exercise for some enterprising publishing house to to research and publish a used boat price guide? I think it could be moneyspinner.

Yachtsnet do a useful guide for models of which they have already sold one.

However, it's never going to be easy, simply because with a few exception there just aren't enough boats of each type produced to iron out statistical fluctuations and different usages. Even if you know what a 2006 Bavaria Mondeo 36 which lived its life in a marina sold for, how much use is that in valuing one which went to Gibraltar and back, or one which went club racing every weekend?

 

[Malo37]

We do it with cars. ie a range of values between pristine and thrashed. We also know roughly the life expectancy for various bits of expensive kit eg: rigging, sails, engines, teak decks etc.

 

[Richard10002]

We do it with cars. ie a range of values between pristine and thrashed. We also know roughly the life expectancy for various bits of expensive kit eg: rigging, sails, engines, teak decks etc.

We also do it with houses now that you can get land registry figures and estate agents can get surveyors valuations. Even with a unique kind of house, once you have an idea of £s per sq.ft., you can make a reasonable estimate for almost any house.

Presumably brokers have a reasonable idea of what any particular boat is worth, (whether they declare this to a seller or buyer is another matter).

 

[Malo37]

I have in mind a simple database system (idea copied form the oil industry) where members submit anonymously the model, age, condition (good/average/poor) and price actually paid (minus commission). Something like that would grow in value as it was populated and would be a good start at least. It could be a regular page in YM !

 

[Bosun Higgs]

But why allow a broker to insert himself into a deal at no added value to either party, and pay him 12%? Why waste everybody's time trying to sell a boat that cost £250k four years ago for £290k now (real case).
.

Who would be daft enought to pay 12.5%? I've never sold through a broker nor bought through one until this present boat when the fee that the seller paid the broker was 2.5% - I saw the invoice.

As for boat prices we are in a funny market when dealing in depreciated £s. Even average French AWBs were selling for top dollar to continentals when I was doing the rounds of the UK brokers last year. It was actually true that every broker I visited at the weekend and on the S Coast had some continentals in there interested in taking advantage of the collapse of the £. I went to look at an HR34 one day - a boat that had come on the market the previous day - to find that it had been sold to a German over the phone sight unseen the same day! And that was for mopre than the new price had been in £.

So it seems quite likely to me that some foreign boats will be selling in £ for more than they cost. But they arent selling for more in real terms

 

[Tranona]

Not made any offers silly or otherwise. Also agree that it is often possible to sell a well maintained boat for something like the original purchase price - actually at a depreciation taking the discounted value of money into consideration. Also a statement of the obvious - anything is worth what it can be sold for, not just boats. But why allow a broker to insert himself into a deal at no added value to either party, and pay him 12%? Why waste everybody's time trying to sell a boat that cost £250k four years ago for £290k now (real case).
My point really was that some kind of used boat price guide would be very helpful to private buyers and sellers. The concept would be derided by those with a 10% vested interest.

The answer to a lack of price guide is quite simple - a lack of data. Unlike cars and houses there are very few transacations and those that do happen are private. With the boats you are looking at there may only be 5 or 10 transactions a year all over the world, most of them private, so how do you know what the market price is? Yachtworld does collate returns from participating brokers which is availble to subscribing brokers. Not surprisingly it only gives a general guide and shows that often, but no always boats sell for less than their asking price.

As to the actual asking price, I suggest you compare asking prices for recent boats with REPLACEMENT COST rather than what the owner paid for it new. With a new HR 37 costing well over £250k it is not surprising that sellers are asking £140k for a good 36. The same is true of most newish boats - the price in £Sterling has risen by 30-40% in the last 2 years, resulting in collapsed sales and few trade in boats coming on the market. Add to the strength of the Euro and active European market you find solid prices and limited numbers of good boats on the market.

Don't understand your comments on Brokers. If they did not perform a useful purpose they would not exist! They do because many sellers find the broker will maximise their return for the boat, and many buyers prefer dealing with a professional. You as a buyer do not have to pay for that - it is the seller. Of course there are people who sell their boat direct perhaps in the hope that they can get a better price for themselves, but they often find that the demands of trying to find a potential customers, do all the viewings, handle the finance and paperwork etc onerous and they would prefer to have somebody else do it. There is no compulsion to use a broker, so it is difficult to understand why you think they should not exist.

You need to remember that nearly all sales of boats are from one private owner to another, that typically an owner may only have such a transaction, often involving very large sums, 2 or three times in a lifetime - so hardly surprising most choose to employ an intermediary to look after their interests - and seek to get the highest price possible.

Welcome to the real world and remember that you are a (potential) buyer now and other times you will be a seller with a very different perspective on the process from the one you currently have!

BTW I am not a broker.

 

[Quandary]

I have in mind a simple database system (idea copied form the oil industry) where members submit anonymously the model, age, condition (good/average/poor) and price actually paid (minus commission). Something like that would grow in value as it was populated and would be a good start at least. It could be a regular page in YM !

A worldwide database of sold boats already exists, most brokers subscribe to it. For a brief moment a year or so ago it was available when someone on the forum released the user names and passwords of two or three subscribers. I was too nosey and insufficently honest to ignore it and it was very interesting for a day or so until the loopholes were closed.
However as a potential seller but not a buyer (definitely my last boat this one) I don't think I am in favour of a Glasses guide for boats. I prefer to make what I want to sell so desirable that no one who can afford it will be able to resist it. When I last bought second hand I looked at a about a dozen Sigma 38s. The one I bought was probably the dearest, and they were all strict one design
( I did not establish the absolute bottom line on more than 4) but I never regretted my choice: quality, condition or what ever it is called is the prime factor with me. Similarly I have always found it easy to sell, sometimes before I have thought of putting a boat on the market. The reputation you establish for yourself can add value to your boat in the area where it is known.

 

[Spyro]

I have in mind a simple database system (idea copied form the oil industry) where members submit anonymously the model, age, condition (good/average/poor) and price actually paid (minus commission). Something like that would grow in value as it was populated and would be a good start at least. It could be a regular page in YM !

It already exists I'm afraid. It's a website called www.soldboats.com You need to a paid up member or know a password to access it though. Most brokers and dealers use it. There was posts on here some time back about it. It goes back many years if you want to search that much and it is very accurate. Private sales don't feature on it so presumably all info comes from the people signed up to it.
You used to be able to google "soldboats.com password" and you could find a password and user name but it hasn't come up with a working one for ages.

 

[Quandary]

Another problem occurs. If you want to protect the value of your recent purchase it would be hard to resist exaggerating its cost.

 

[Robin]

Not made any offers silly or otherwise. Also agree that it is often possible to sell a well maintained boat for something like the original purchase price - actually at a depreciation taking the discounted value of money into consideration. Also a statement of the obvious - anything is worth what it can be sold for, not just boats. But why allow a broker to insert himself into a deal at no added value to either party, and pay him 12%? Why waste everybody's time trying to sell a boat that cost £250k four years ago for £290k now (real case).
My point really was that some kind of used boat price guide would be very helpful to private buyers and sellers. The concept would be derided by those with a 10% vested interest.

Our broker sold our boat in just 6 weeks (to a French buyer) and charged just 5%. I have no idea where you get 12% from. Not only did they put up a very good presentation to send out, we could have chosen to have the boat on display on their Solent walkway (same 5% deal) with free liftout and one month storage included, however our boat sold out of her home berth. The brokers handled firstly an initial deposit and then the final payment via a client account to mine and in double smart time. They also handled the required de-registration from British Registry to enable the new owner to register her as a French boat. So on balance I think the brokers added value.

We have bought and sold many boats, both privately and through brokerage. In our case we spec a boat we want as the finished article, then calculate what each one on offer needs in order to meet our spec. Sometimes the cheapest is the best deal but often the more expensive one ends up cheaper when brought up to 'our' spec.

A list of secondhand values is frankly meaningless IMO. A 10 year old boat may just have been fitted with all new rigging, new high quality sails, new upholstery etc and be much better value than a 5 year old with original cheapo sails and mildewed upholstery from uncaring owners. Cars are much more the standard article than are boats.

 

[Ubergeekian]

We do it with cars. ie a range of values between pristine and thrashed. We also know roughly the life expectancy for various bits of expensive kit eg: rigging, sails, engines, teak decks etc.

Cars are different - there are many, many more of them - well, of most of them - so it's much easier to get statistically meaningful samples. Glass and Parker each get details of thousands if not tens of thousands of car sale prices each month. Even the most common yachts won't generate many sales - if there are 2,000 Centaurs around and the average owner keeps theirs for ten years that's only 200 sales a year of which half are probably private or via club notice board. If brokers can report 100 sale prices a year I'd be surprised.

Local and personal preferences will also, I suspect, affect yacht prices far more than cars. For example, I wasn't at all bothered about having a titchy wee Yanmar in Jumblie because I prefer sailing: someone who regularly has to beat a strong tide home under power might be far more swayed by a bigger engine than I would have been. On the other hand, I really valued the wind vane and was prepared to pay substantially to have it while someone who prefers local pottering from a marina might quite reasonably see it as an annoying and vulnerable obstruction which bumps up berthing charges. So what's a Victoria 26 with 1GM + windvane worth compared to one with a 2GM? To me, a couple of grand more. To others, a couple of grand less.

Mind you, I don't think a rough guide is at all a bad idea. Sailing Today used to do a listing of second hand boats with prices ranges - I don't know how often, though, and I don't know whether they still do it.

 

[CliveG]

I have just finished a full refurbishment of my 20 year old boat and had a valuation that is more than twice the price that an un refurbished example of the model has just been sold for.
Mine is not for sale but if she were I would not expect to get the full amount of the valuation for her.
I am only aware of 3 or 4 of the model that have sold in the 5 years since I bought mine.
There would not be enough data there to give a firm price for the model.

 

[Firestone]

Nice idea. There are Enough tyre kickers/dreamers out in the world!!!
For me, you can either negociate the price and buy it or walk away.

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

Some owners put their boats up at top whack prices in the hope that someone will bite. Others put theirs up at realistic prices if they really want to sell. Brokers will probably try to persuade the former to put their boat down to a more realistic price and warn the latter that any buyer will try to beat them down anyway!

 

[Malo37]

The answer to a lack of price guide is quite simple - a lack of data. Other posters in this thread are saying that a price guide does or has in fact existed. Unlike cars and houses there are very few transacations and those that do happen are private. Probably in the thousands per year in the UK alone. With the boats you are looking at there may only be 5 or 10 transactions a year all over the world, unrealistically low guess in my view, anyway I don't want to do a statistical analysis, just to know what a couple of similar boats actually sold for - most of them private, so how do you know what the market price is? exactly my point ! Yachtworld does collate returns from participating brokers which is availble to subscribing brokers. Why is it not available to purchasers if they have nothing to hide? Not surprisingly it only gives a general guide and shows that often, but no always boats sell for less than their asking price.

As to the actual asking price, I suggest you compare asking prices for recent boats with REPLACEMENT COST why compare a used boat with a new one when I have no intention of buying a new one? rather than what the owner paid for it new. With a new HR 37 costing well over £250k it is not surprising that sellers are asking £140k for a good 36. The same is true of most newish boats - the price in £Sterling has risen by 30-40% in the last 2 years, resulting in collapsed sales and few trade in boats coming on the market. It has actually resulted in increased sales for Uk brokers Add to the strength of the Euro and active European market you find solid prices and limited numbers of good boats on the market.

Don't understand your comments on Brokers. If they did not perform a useful purpose they would not exist! They do because many sellers find the broker will maximise their return for the boat, That's what they say but how do you know? and many buyers prefer dealing with a professional. There are no professional requirements to be a yacht broker or a used car salesman - I could be one . You as a buyer do not have to pay for that - it is the seller. DDo you really believe that sellers don't add the brokers commission to the price of the boat? Of course there are people who sell their boat direct perhaps in the hope that they can get a better price for themselves, but they often find that the demands of trying to find a potential customers, do all the viewings, handle the finance and paperwork etc onerous and they would prefer to have somebody else do it. There is no compulsion to use a broker, so it is difficult to understand why you think they should not exist. I did not say they should not exist. I asked why some of them charge an order of magnitude more to sell a boat that an estate agent does to sell a house of similar value.
You need to remember that nearly all sales of boats are from one private owner to another, that typically an owner may only have such a transaction, often involving very large sums, 2 or three times in a lifetime - so hardly surprising most choose to employ an intermediary to look after their interests - and seek to get the highest price possible. I would rather my money comes direct to me than via a third party who takes his cut, and get the best price by eliminating that same cut
Welcome to the real world been here for a while and bought and sold 6 boats to date without brokers and without problems and remember that you are a (potential) buyer now and other times you will be a seller with a very different perspective on the process from the one you currently have!

BTW I am not a broker