Used boat values

[Ubergeekian]

The answer to a lack of price guide is quite simple - a lack of data. Other posters in this thread are saying that a price guide does or has in fact existed. Unlike cars and houses there are very few transacations and those that do happen are private. Probably in the thousands per year in the UK alone.

Yes, but how many of a particular model? Knowing how much three Vertues sold for doesn't really help you price a Sadler 32, does it?

With the boats you are looking at there may only be 5 or 10 transactions a year all over the world, unrealistically low guess in my view, anyway I don't want to do a statistical analysis, just to know what a couple of similar boats actually sold for

That's rather the point, isn't it? The difficulty of finding a "similar boat". If you have only a couple of prices there may be huge variation due to sails, rigging age, equipment, general condition, time of year, location, seller's desperation and so on.

One Mondeo is very much like any other Mondeo and different trim and equipment levels are pretty easy to account for. Boats ain't like that.

The rest seems to be a general I hate brokers diatribe, which I'll ignore - except to say that if you don't like brokers, don't use one.

 

[jonic]

10-12% brokerage fee is not by any means indicative of normal brokerage fees. The vast majority will be half that and less.

Used car salesmen, estate agents and yacht brokers all have different fee structures because they all work to different business models, all with different levels of volume.

Car traders do just that. They trade. They buy a car first , mark it up, typically by 25-30%, add a warranty advertise it and sell it on.

Estate agents on behalf of a third party draw up details advertise a property conduct viewings, and negotiate a price. Then they hand over the conveyancing and contract exchange to two other parties, who charge additional and separate fees.

Yacht brokers draw up details and advertise used yachts on behalf of the seller, conduct viewings, and negotiate a price. But then unlike an estate agent they continue the process, by drawing up contracts for both buyer and seller. (Having checked title RCD and VAT status.) The contracts are then administered through survey stage, re-negotiated after survey and the broker completes for both parties with an exchange of title/funds and the bill of sale.

Anyone can claim to be a broker, just as anyone can set up and claim to be a professional photographer, designer, marketing expert, IT consultant etc.

And like the above professions the better ones will belong to an accredited professional organisation with specific rules of membership and standardised training and codes of conduct. ABYA brokers must follow the code of conduct, undergo initial training and then spend up to three years as an associate member with continuous development training before becoming a full member.

Those who use a broker to sell their boats may not want to do the advertising, do not want to field the enquiries, do not want to do the viewings or simply may not have the time. When it comes to boats with higher value some are just not comfortable with negotiating with strangers or accepting money and handling the paperwork without an experienced third party in between.

Buyers may also prefer to develop a relationship with a specific broker who knows and understands the area of the yacht market they are interested in and will provide a continuous stream of possibilities as they come (or before) they come on to the market. Again with high value boats, some buyers are just not comfortable with the paperwork and exchanging those sums of money with a total stranger.

A good broker will be accredited to an organisation and will be working hard for both buyers and sellers to broker a deal. He will be doing his best to help buyers as much as his selling clients, otherwise the phone won't be ringing much.

There is no official published guide to used prices as there is no central location to register the sale price of a second hand yacht- or enough other data to create an accurate one. (Although the yachting press do publish average prices in their A-Z of used yacht guides.) In addition the very low volume sales of some models per year, and the vastly differing inventories and specifications of the higher volume yachts would make it very difficult to publish a meaningful and cost effective guide.


Soldboats.com is part of the subscription service brokers pay for when they sign up for membership of yachtworld. There is nothing secret in it, it is just a voluntary database of sales made by brokers who have subscribed. It is not exhaustive because it does not contain every other sale that has taken place outside of that area of the market. It helps a broker gauge the market, but it's just one of many elements and he has to pay for it.

(I find it most useful in persuading clients to lower their price when they have an unrealistic expectation of the market.)

The reality is there is no fixed price. The market sets the price and nothing else. It is a free market with both private and brokerage sales, so ultimately only the market can set the price. Price too high and you will never sell. Bid too low and the sale will go elsewhere. It is also a market that for some models may only have a handful of transactions a year.

Now having said all that I do realise that not everybody operates like that, but conversely the picture the OP painted is also not the complete picture.

The kind of high quality boat he is interested in is generally in short supply and often sought after so they do hold their value very well, whether being sold through a broker or privately. It can be a frustrating process trying to find the right boat at the right price and a seller and a buyer who agree on what that actually is. You can do it privately or through a broker, but no-one is fixing the price, as the whole process is open to offers. Part of a brokers job is to understand the buyer and seller expectations and bring them to a happy meeting point.

 

[Robin]

This is the real world. The price asked is what the owner chooses and the price offered is what the buyer chooses. For the sale to proceed however the sale figure arrived at must satisfy both parties, that is simple enough.

I suspect the problem here is that the OP is finding his idea or expectation of what the used price should be somewhat different from the amount asked by the owners of those for sale. It is the owner's choice what price to ask, if it is too high then look elsewhere or at a different model that is cheaper. Sellers will adjust their prices downwards if needs be in time and if they are not doing that then either the price is in the right ball park (say within 10%) or is a speculative 'I wonder if some nutter will offer that' one where they will sell if it happens and not if it doesn't.

 

[jamesjermain]

As far as second hand prices are concerned, I put values to the boats in the various used boat guides I wrote over the years, and YM is doing so in its current re-run. These values were difficult to assess and very rough. I would stand by most of them, largely because the spread was, of necessity, very wide. For some of the rarer models even the brokers I used to consult, would not speculate on a value and finding examples for sale to make even the wildest guess, was often impossible.

It would be great to have a marine equivalent of a Glass or Parker but in addition to the problem of assessing value, there is the question commercial viability. The number of yacht sales per year are not high enough to sustain an annual publication and anything less frequent would quickly become meaningless - except, of course that such a guide might, itself dictate prices offered and accepted and hence become its own control.

 

[Spyro]

The one thing I did find very interesting on SOLDBOATS.COM was the percentage difference between asking and selling price. As a buyer 12 months ago this made me feel a lot better about putting in a considerably lower offer that what the broker was asking.

 

[Sans Bateau]

When you are selling a boat we are told, "Oh no, no market for those, its only worth £xxxx", much to the disappointment of the potential vendor who in his mind has already overvalued it after all it is his pride and joy.

However when we come to buy a boat, we are told, "Lot of people interested in this one, you'll need to be quick, and with a strong offer to secure it". This then comes as a disappointment to the potential buyer who is convinced the vendor will snatch his hand off when a silly offer is made.

Its human nature to expect more when selling, but to want to 'get a bargain' when buying.

 

[Tranona]

With the boats you are looking at there may only be 5 or 10 transactions a year all over the world, unrealistically low guess in my view, anyway I don't want to do a statistical analysis, just to know what a couple of similar boats actually sold for - most of them private, so how do you know what the market price is?
As to the actual asking price, I suggest you compare asking prices for recent boats with REPLACEMENT COST why compare a used boat with a new one when I have no intention of buying a new one? rather than what the owner paid for it new. With a new HR 37 costing well over £250k it is not surprising that sellers are asking £140k for a good 36. The same is true of most newish boats - the price in £Sterling has risen by 30-40% in the last 2 years, resulting in collapsed sales and few trade in boats coming on the market. It has actually resulted in increased sales for Uk brokers Add to the strength of the Euro and active European market you find solid prices and limited numbers of good boats on the market.

Having done a bit of research myself, I think my guess at the number of transactions (if related to a model of boat) is an overestimate. On Yachtworld.com, probably the biggest single listing site there are only 16 Malos of all sizes and ages covering 10 models - an excellent example of a "thin" market! On the other hand there are over 60 Bavaria 36s from the 2000-2004, of which 10 are in the UK. The average UK price is £61.4k, and all but 1 are priced within +/- 10% of that. So simple A level economics. The more buyers and sellers in the market and the more homogeneous the product the more likely there is to be a "clearing" price at which goods change hands.

Knowledge of actual prices that are achieved is of limited use. It only applies to the one transaction, about which you know very little and is in the past. Unless there are regular sales of similar products as in my Bavaria 36 example you cannot say it represents a "market price".

I disagree strongly with you about the impact of the prices of new boats. I know you are not looking to buy a new boat, but the price of new boats has an impact on used boats in two ways. In the growth years of the mid 2000s new boat prices were fairly static or declining in real terms. Sales of new boats were bouyant and the used market was active with trade in boats. However, values of used boats fell. That situation has changed now. New boats have increased in price, resulting in a fall in sales, less activity in trade ins and rising prices of late model used boats. buyers who may well have considered a new boat in the past can no longer afford it - with a fully equipped HR31 for example costing over £150k, so turn to spend their money on a used boat (or not even change boats). Add to that the temporary market imperfections of the falling value of the £ attracting Euro buyers and you get the current market. Shortage of good quality boats and hardening prices. Not a good time to buy

 

[Philcdf029]

Used boat prices

Considering all the web sites out there selling boats there is little to help the buyer understand the financial risk of buying a boat. I happen to like statistics
What is the depreciation curve by brand and model.
From a seller perspective what is the average time to sale based on price.
I have been looking at Jeanneau Prestige 36 asking prices and discovered a linear regression relationship showing that on average the asking price is on average £6.5k per year lower. I think this is too much for me and will look for another model, interestingly I looked at Sealine f33 and fairline Phantom 41 and they showed no significant statistical linear regression. I looked at Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40 and this also did not show a linear regression between asking price and year of build.
It is time consuming typing the data into my statistical package Minitab.
But from the initial analysis I think data analysis serves its purpose. Facts rather than opinions.
If any one wants to see the analysis let me know.

 

[Mishoo]

How are sales of used yachts going, particularly those in the £8k to £20k range?

 

[V1701]

How are sales of used yachts going, particularly those in the £8k to £20k range?

The same as most others, slowly. You can certainly get more for your money than you could 3 or 4 years ago & if you look carefully you should be able to get a real bargain. If you are selling, better present the boat really well and be very realistic about the asking price or it will sit there for a long time. Based on my experience...

 

[Twister_Ken]

Ooh a rave from the grave - a 2010 thread revived. Probably depreciated a bit since then though, through neglect.

 

[chinita]

Ooh a rave from the grave - a 2010 thread revived. Probably depreciated a bit since then though, through neglect.

I love it when that happens.

I once caught myself posting on my own four year old thread which someone had resurrected.

Bit embarrassing, you are the first person i have told so don't spread it about.

 

[V1701]

Ooh I should've spotted that, the two before me can be forgiven...